Crowd rallies against anti-religion sign
Sunday, December 7, 2008 4:06 PM PST
By The Associated Press
Printable version
E-mail this articleOLYMPIA — Hundreds of people showed up at state Capitol for a two-hour rally Sunday afternoon to protest a holiday display that disparages religion and says there is no God.
A "winter solstice" sign sponsored by the atheistic Freedom from Religion Foundation calls religion "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
An organizer at Sunday's rally, Steve Wilson, says outrage over that display is growing. He says the sign is offensive to people of all faiths.
Three counter-protesters stood at the side of the rally, holding up signs that said, "Get Over It."
State Patrol troopers were on duty at the rally site.
Plato wrote on Dec 7, 2008 5:24 PM:
" So the hard core christians want freedom of religion for themselves but not for anyone that thinks differently from them. They should just get over it. "
Gondolapete wrote on Dec 7, 2008 5:32 PM:
" The Christians hate..only the "celebrate diversity" crowd knows true love.... "
TK wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:20 PM:
" It's not just Christians, its everybody who cherishes a belief in something rather than nothing who are not thrilled with the Freedom from Religion Foundation's display. I think their "no god but reason" religion has done to them what they think has been done to others. "
Castle Rocker wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:32 PM:
" Christians put up a tree that symbolizes a holiday that they celebrate. Atheists beleive in nothing so they don't have a symbol and simply put up a sign that attacks Christians, calling them stupid. If they could come up with something a little more civilized maybe more people would take them seriously. As it is they are just acting like a group of bullies calling Christians names. "
American First wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:33 PM:
" Glad they exorcised their rights. Plato, get a clue, you clearly don't get it, it's the anti-Christian extremist groups causing the problem. Christians are the ones being victimized here, not the other way around. This extremist atheist group is the aggressors here, why don't the atheists leave the Christians and Christmas alone? "
herenkelso wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:59 PM:
" The sign is meant to be offensive. Freedom of religion means the freedom to believe what you want. The sign is offensive because it trashes another religion. If it said, 'there are other options' it would be one thing, but states that religion is WRONG, a myth that causes damage. That would actually be a violation of freedom to religion in my opinion. "
tally ho wrote on Dec 7, 2008 7:15 PM:
" Christmas, Hanukkah, and all other religions are just that - religious. At this time of year we are celebrating our religious beliefs and there is no place for athiests. If they want to go to the state capitol and ask for a time they can display their disbelief in a greater God, then let them do that. This is not the time or place for their stand. This is the time for them to "get over it". "
applepie wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:05 PM:
" RE; Plato So are you saying that ATHEISM is a religion? Atheism is a disbelief or denile of God. "Winter solstice" is when the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn. If I have a reason to celebrate something it isn't going to be the fact that the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn. You have the right to celebrate anything you want but why do you have to disrespect what my believes are with a non religious sign? Then you tell me to get over it. One thing you should remember God made the tropic of Capricorn. "
figgerditout wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:31 PM:
" I believe in the BOOGEY MAN. Can I have equal space and time? If not... Why? He does exist you know. "
Castle Rocker wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:43 PM:
" Christmas is about celebrating the core belief of the Christian religion. Atheists believe in nothing, therefore there is nothing to celebrate and no time of the year to celebrate it. They're very sad about that, so they pick a religious holiday and bash it. The Atheist group's sign is the equivalent of the KKK putting up a sign that says black people are inferior to white people next to a poster of Martin Luther King on his birthday. I would bet money the Governor would not allow that. "
taintersniff wrote on Dec 7, 2008 11:34 PM:
" It's not really fair to lump all Atheist's into one category or way of thought. Lumping all Christian's into the same belief system would not be fair. The Westboro Baptist Church's message is a good example. As an Atheist, supporting religious freedom is one of the most important duties of my belief system. Separation of church and state is also something that I strongly believe. Just because an individual is an Atheist doesn't mean they are a totally empty and thoughtless human being that just wants to attack other religions. I don't align myself with any particular Atheist organization because the idea of even sharing Atheistic values is anti-Atheist and limits my freedom. To me being Atheist means you are free thinking. Attacking religion is not necessary, but I don't think people of other belief systems share a strong enough understanding of the importance of the separation of church and state. Not one religion is more important than another. It's difficult to comprehend the number of different belief systems that encompass the world, from Christianity to the isolated Yanomamo of South America. What is important is the freedom to practice whatever you believe. If a state sponsors or enables one particular religion then that freedom is diminished. The Capitol should be void any religious or non-religious endorsement. "
~:sturgeon:~ wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:49 AM:
" I have had more spritual rather than religious experences. And when each and everyone of us experences said spritual experence, only by faith do we carry on. Even the slug has its place in the kingdom. Thank you for making us all diffrent. : D "
feistyone wrote on Dec 8, 2008 5:19 AM:
" Everyone can have their own beliefs, it is when they try to cram it down others throats that get me. "
Kelso Guy wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:18 AM:
" This "season" of celebration began hundreds of years before any of the modern day religions. It is a time when the days a getting longer, everything is dying, and gloomy weather causes depression. The act of giving and spending time with family and friends was not originally a Christian thing...Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means "the birthday of the unconquered Sun." The use of the title Sol Invictus allowed several solar deities to be worshipped collectively, including Elah-Gabal, a Syrian sun god; Sol, the god of Emperor Aurelian; and Mithras, a soldiers' god of Persian origin. Emperor Elagabalus (218–222 AD) introduced the festival, and it reached the height of its popularity under Aurelian, who promoted it as an empire-wide holiday. This day had held no significance in the Roman festive calendar until it was introduced in the third century. The festival was placed on the date of the solstice because this was on this day that the Sun reversed its southward retreat and proved itself to be "unconquered." Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus. "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born...Christ should be born", Cyprian wrote. John Chrysostom also commented on the connection: "They call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .?" So Castle Rocker, you can see it is a day to celebrate more than the birth of your "son of God". "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:21 AM:
" If there is going to be large scale protests that require extra State Patrol; Officers to guarantee the safety of the Capitol and the people in it, there should be no holiday decoration. Offensive or not, the 1st amendment and subsequent supreme court decisions make it clear that the FFRF has the access privileges as Christians to state property. If the Christians feel it is too offensive then all decoration should be removed. By the way, there have now been three articles that labeled this organization as an "athiest organization", when it is not, it is a group of "freethinkers" comprised of athiests and agnostics. Thanks for the superb reporting AP, way to sacrifice journalistic integrity in order to stir up your readers. Mission Accomplished! "
Kelso Guy wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:24 AM:
" I'm not an atheist, I don't believe that Christianity is the "true" religion but I do believe that all religions have some basic tenants that point to a truth. For the most part I agree that religion is mainly myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:18 AM:
" taintersniff-The 1st amendment was written to keep government out of religion, but says nothing about keeping religion out of government. All the amendment does is prevent government from making any laws promoting or prohibiting religion, in a sense keeping government from governing religion. Seperation of Church and State does not exist, it is mentioned nowhere in the constitution. The term came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson where he states his opinion that, figuratively, the 1st amendment creates a wall of seperation between church and state. But that letter was simply a letter and has nothing to do with the law of governing of the United States. "
Rosey Glasses wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:24 AM:
" You people crack me up! Our first ammendment grants us freedom to practice what ever religion we choose. If these athiests want to show their IQ in this way... let them. Why should the christians worry that it is offensive, maybe those people find christmas offensive. It doesn't matter. Remember that it is not our place to judge these people, least we be judged as harshly. I don't know many christians that follow their teachings and avoid passing judgment on their neighbors. I read it all over these blogs, people telling others that their views have no base, that they are wrong or worse that they hare stupid. Opinions are like rectums, everyone has one and they all smell from time to time. If the athiests want to celebrate the winter solstice, let them do so in peace. nuff said "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:28 AM:
" My bad, kelso guy, I wasn't clear. When I said "Christmas is about celebrating the core belief of the Christian Religion," what I meant was that "FOR THE PEOPLE WHO PUT UP THE CHRISTMAS TREE AND NATIVITY SCENE IN THE STATE CAPITOL, Christmas is about celebrating the core belief of the Christain Religion." That would be Christians. I just assumed that you wouldn't think I meant Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Christ for Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc... Good research though, looks like you spent a lot of time on that. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:35 AM:
" Christians put up a tree and nativity scene to celebrate Christmas, not a sign that said people that don't beleive in God are stupid. Who's picking a fight here? "
realityshowgirl wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:42 AM:
" I am a christian. I think if the capitol building allows a christian sign to be up, they need to let other signs from other religions be up, even an atheist one. I think it is only fair. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 11:25 AM:
" realityshowgirl-I somewhat agree that an atheist group should be have space to display a sign but don't you think it should be some kind of a symbol of what they believe, like a Christmas Tree or Nativity Scene, and not simply a written letter that bashes what others believe. Also, I say above that I somewhat agree because Christians put up there symbols on the federal holiday of Christmas, so maybe their should be a federal atheism holiday where they can display their symbol to avoid this kind of clash in the future. But I guess it's hard to have a day to celebrate SOMETHING when what you believe is NOTHING. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 11:46 AM:
" Castle Rocker: The 1st amendment is the basis for seperation of church and state. While it does not specifically mention it in the amendment, it was more broadly interpreted by the supreme court to mean seperation. So, unfortunately, you are incorrect in stating that seperation of church and state does not exist. It was laid out by our judicial branch, which you may recall is allowed to further define our laws and constitution. Decisions reached by the supreme court are then binding and become national law. That's why Americans refer to seperation of church and state. Additionally, many of the documents that formed the basis for the Dec of Ind, Articles of Confed, and Constitution also refer to the principle. For instance, Locke's principle of social contract, which clearly influenced the patriots, lays out seperation. You might remember that Locke's 2nd Treatise was copied almost word for word in the Dec of Ind. It was also implicit in the creation of Rhode Island by Roger Williams. "
stink wrote on Dec 8, 2008 11:55 AM:
" How is a Christmas Tree religious even? Seems like it's a dead try with lights on it. "
Kelso Guy wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:07 PM:
" Castle Rocker - In order to celebrate the winter solstice I need to have a symbol? In order to celebrate longer days I have to have a symbol? We are celebrating the changing seasons and time with family and friends, something that's been celebrated on this date far longer than your "Christ". Calm down, nobody is taking your Christmas away, they just want people to remember what this celebration is really about and it has nothing to do with Jesus or Santa Claus - if you want to celebrate Jesus birth on this day, so be it, if you wanna celebrate Saint Nick, so be it. If you wanna celebrate an end to the days growing shorter and colder so be it. The statement was meant to give rise to free thinking - if this offends you and causes you to get all defensive then maybe you have a problem with your faith - I don't have a problem with mine. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:24 PM:
" On the other hand, had the group that set up the nativity scene instead set up a sign that said - "Peace On Earth, Goodwill Toward Men" I doubt that the FFRF would have had occasion to place their sign. Perhaps, those that do not believe, yet do pay taxes, feel as though the nativity scene is an insult to their beliefs carried out on a state facility that is equally theirs. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:30 PM:
" The FFRF does not believe in NOTHING, a significant portion of their membership is derived from agnostics, who clearly believe in SOMETHING. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:43 PM:
" Kelso Guy-Didn't say you had to have a symbol to celebrate, just said that a sign bashing religion is not a symbol for Atheism or whatever it is you practice. Just as a creed bashing Atheism is not a symbol for Christianity. The tree and nativity scene are simply symbols recognizing Christmas, which Christians celebrate. Don't celebrate your holiday by bashing ours, that's all I'm saying. Also, not being sarcastic at all, just trying to understand, but you say you are comfortable in your faith, what is it you have faith in? "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:55 PM:
" Cowlitz1-Can you explain the "SOMETHING" that agnostics beleive in. Again not trying to pick any fights here, just interested. From what I understand agnostic is not belief or disbelief in God, it is the acknowlegement that neither can be proven and so you basically do not chose. In a sense being asked the question "do you, or do you not, believe in God?" And answering, "PASS" or taking the fifth. Please explain, I really am trying to understand. "
Kelso Guy wrote on Dec 8, 2008 1:24 PM:
" Castle Rocker - my "faith" is that there is something wonderful about this universe, that we (and that includes all living beings) are powerful manifestations of this wonderful power of the universe, that we are all equal, (animals, plants, people), that harm done to one is harm done to self, that we are here to learn and in doing so the universe is "evolving" as it is meant to. I also believe that Christians, Muslims, etc. are missing the whole picture because they refuse to see the other truths that are presented. I personally think that Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna, the Buddha, etc. were all correct and pointed to the same thing but that most (including you and I) are not able to comprehend the truth on the necessary level but instead present arguments as to why "we" are right and "they" are wrong. I won't know the truth until I die but I "believe" that religion is exclusive, and therefore hardens hearts and enslaves minds. I don't have a problem with your belief in God, I just don't believe in "God" the way you do. To me God is what we've come from and God is what we'll return to - no matter what you were "brought up" to believe in. The fact of this matter is that the sun was one of the first things that humans celebrated - it is the real reason for the season. People have forgotten the real meaning of Christams alright... "
Simple Man wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:08 PM:
" Any sign should be allowed or none should be allowed. However the signs should be in good taste. I for one as long as many others from all religions find the quote on the sign to be disrespectful to our beliefs. If they change it maybe not as many people will be offended. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:19 PM:
" Kelso Guy-Faith is belief in something unseen. You didn't say anything that you have faith in, other than your faith that you are pretty sure that you're unsure. "
Kelso Guy wrote on Dec 8, 2008 3:15 PM:
" Castle Rocker - you didn't read my post - I have faith that there is something wonderful about "us" and the universe we live in. I don't have to be specific because that is where "I believe" religion loses its way. You have faith in man - he has given you the truth and all you have to do is believe and you'll be saved and the rest of us will not. It's exclusive,....hardens hearts and enslaves minds. Just like the Muslim extremists are willing to die because we are wrong and therefore we are damned anyway. I don't believe that. I think everyone is "saved" whether they like it or not. Religion sees "us" and "them" but it's really just "us"....get it? I'm not trying to discount your beliefs or your faith, but there have been many religions and many Gods in the last 15 thousand years, and they've all said (in other words) that they were the truth, the light and the way... "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 3:58 PM:
" Agnostics believe a number of different things. I believe in Agnostic theism in which I am sure that God exists (I see too much order to preclude the existence of a creator) however, I am not sure of the mystical supernatural and miraculous trappings of judeo-christianity (the resurrection, the trinity, etc.) There are sects of Agnosticism that do take the middle road the Castle Rocker describes, and there are those that take variants of it as well. The important thing to note is that Agnostics as a rule do not know if God exists or not. Many, similar to myself, believe in a God, but are unsure how it is manifest. However, they do not say flatly that God does not exist, which athiests do. Much like Kelso Guy, I have trouble believing that whatever flavor of the day is popular is "the way", Therefore, I have trouble making a blind leap of faith. So, in short, agnostics in general believe in the possibility of a God, Agnostic Theists believe in a God, but not the trappings of a religion. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:17 PM:
" Cowlitz1-You just stated what you believe in and so did Kelso Guy. You both have made blind leaps of faith in believing it. "
DW wrote on Dec 8, 2008 6:23 PM:
" Cowblitz1, here we go again. If there was truely ment to be separation of church and state, why is "In God We Trust" on our currency. Why is the President sworn in on a Bible and says "So help me God", why does the Supreme Court have carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments, why do monuments and builds in Washington D.C. mention God countless times. castle rocker is right, the separation of church and state is never mentioned in the constitution. The clause you are referring to was ment to keep the state out of the church. I have nothing against the way you believe or not, but the fact is this countries laws are a dirvative of christian values. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:34 PM:
" DeeDub: You are correct that the US has been influenced to no small degree by Judeo-Christianity. However, the religious heterogeneity of the founding fathers did lead to the first amendment, which was later explained as a "wall of seperation between church and state" in a Jefferson letter. In 1878 it was quoted in its entirety in Supreme Court case Reynolds v. US though not interpreted as we understand it today. In 1947 the US Supreme Court interpreted the establishment clause in the 1st amendment to mean seperation of religion from public/state affairs in Everson v. B. of Ed.. Later "church" was further determined to be essentially any religion based activity in public. I fully agree that christianity has influenced the United States. But the fact is, there is a clear line of precedence that establishes the very same wall of seperation that TJ refers to in his letter. If the state were to remove the sign and it were to go to court, the state would either be forced to display the sign or remove all religious trappings from the Capitol grounds. I also have nothing against your belief system, many of the people that I respect the most are devout Christians. I just happen not to agree with them. Unfortunately, the US Supreme court has made it clear that my beliefs, or lack thereof, are worthy of equal consideration in the eyes of the public. "
greenbean wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:51 PM:
" Pangborn, what if you are wrong? I believe in heaven and hell, God and demons. If I die and find out I was wrong, oh well. If you die and find out there is an afterlife -- what then? "
tallsy wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:14 AM:
" What is this world coming to. Christmas is about the Birth of our Savior Jesus Christ and now people are against Christmas, give me a break. I am a Christian and I don't think it is right for people to put a ornament on a Christmas Tree that is against Christmas "
biasmedia wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:52 AM:
" LOOK at your bill of rights there is no thing put in there is separation of church and state. read it for a change people "
DW wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:34 AM:
" So Cowblitz1, your last post sounds it is coming from a reasonable person. My problem starts when people like Cheney119 start spewing hatred for Christians. I have only simpathy, and pitty for people like that. When some of these whack jobs don't even want a cross on a soldiers grave, I have issues with that. If you don't believe in God fine, but for the majority of us that do, don't shove your disbelief down my throat, and I won't do the same.
I just don't see how religious connotations can be so horribly offensive. So you do your thing and I'll do mine. But when some anti-religious nut job puts a crucifix in a jar of urine with the intent of pissing me off, he will have been successful. "
I just don't see how religious connotations can be so horribly offensive. So you do your thing and I'll do mine. But when some anti-religious nut job puts a crucifix in a jar of urine with the intent of pissing me off, he will have been successful. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 9, 2008 8:22 AM:
" Cowlitz1-I am not talking about your beliefs, you are free to have them. What we are talking about here is the sign. If they have a sign to put up that represents what they stand for, I believe they should be free to display it. But they don't have a sign to display that represents what they stand for so they display a sign that trashes somebody else's beliefs. Freedom of religion is great but they are not practicing their religion, they're trashing someone else's religion. And also, just something to think about, can a group that believes in having no religion really argue that our freedom of religion should protect them? "
MrsEd wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:05 AM:
" I am disgusted by the sign placed at the capitol building. This sign was not placed there out of religous expression or the celebration of Winter Solstice. If that was the case, it would have symbols supporting their holiday (and there are symbols) and not just a message saying mean and diparaging things about the other holidays/religons. Here is a quote from Freedom From Religion co-president Dan Barker "It's not a religious display; it is an attack on religion". If it's not a religous display, is it really protected under that amendment? Are negative and hateful comments protected in our state? That's just offensive. Maybe instead of discontinuing "Holiday" displays, maybe there should be a ban on negativity. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:07 AM:
" Deedub: I have to agree with you, the NEA had no business supporting the "Piss Christ" (even the name is highly offensive). The artist has the right to create it, but there is no way a federally funded program should support it. Castle Rocker: My belief system instills an order to the way that I look at the world around me. My conception of God does not preclude following the Golden Rule, nor does it allow me to cheat on my wife, kill people, lie, cheat, swindle, etc. Just because I am labeled an agnostic, my belief system is not a religion? A good example might be trancendentalism. Do you argue that Thoreau is not religious because he choose to worship in a "church of nature" and did not label himself as a mainstream Christian? Additionally, I think many non-christians percieve negativity in the Christian message due to the implicit threat that I will be burning in brimstone if I don't accept Christ as he is described in book written two millenia ago. Similarly, as a non-christian, I have often been called a number of disparaging epithets by Christians, due to my belief system. This leads me to percieve negativity far more easily in the Christian message. I'm not saying that this is necessarily logical, but, unfortunately, it does happen. I probably need to spend more time practicing turning the other cheek. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:03 AM:
" Cowlitz1-I'm sure many Christian have called you many things, but none of them placed a sign in the state capital. That's all I'm saying. The people that put the sign in the capital, I have no problem with them believing what they believe. What I have a problem with is the governor letting them put a sign in the capital that does not represent their beliefs, it merely trashes others beliefs. They have the freedom to be jackasses, which is what makes this country great, but the governor shouldn't sponsor it. If they have a symbol that promotes their beliefs, great. But they don't. The Christmas Tree does not have a sign on it that says those who do not believe in God are stupid, and the Baby Jesus in the Nativity Scene does not tell passer's by to believe in him or go to Hell. These are symbols that celebrate the Chritmas Holiday. The sign posted by the Freedom From Religion Foundation does not celebrate their beliefs, it trashes other's. Can we not agree on that? "
opinionated 1 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:48 PM:
" Even though I believe the FFRF sign is 100% correct , I think they should take it and the other holiday displays down at the capitol . Let people display their beliefs on their own property not the state's . "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 1:18 PM:
" Castle Rocker: I agree with you, that on face value, the sign seems to be purely negative. However, I think the point is to encourage a sense of skepticism and introspection when it comes to whatever belief system you hold dear. The news is rife with examples of extremist religions attempting to force, often violently, their particular brand of dogma on those around them. I see this sign as a question mark behind the actions of those religions. If there were a mockup of Mecca erected in the state capitol building, I have a feeling many of the posters here would not have a problem with a sign stating "Islamic myth and superstition hardens hearts and enslaves minds" being placed next to it. In a sense, the sign is a celebration of the beliefs of those who shun organized religion and popular conceptions of God. Many feel as though removing the strictures of organized religion allows them to think more clearly and removes impediments to rational thinking. Regardless of whether they are right or not, it is a reflection of their belief system. While the sign is worded confrontationally, it seems no more confrontational than the popular judeo-christian outlook that all other religions are wrong, which was practically drilled into my head prior to leaving the church.The implicitly confrontational nature of Christianity is already understood. Thus, there is no need for a sign loaded with vitriol, the world already gets what is implied by the nativity scene. "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 9, 2008 2:29 PM:
" I think the sign did exactly what it was supposed to do. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a name that has now been heard, seen, or read in every household in Washington with a TV, radio, or newspaper. They've created this confrontation on purpose and hid behind, freedom of religion/speech with an innocent look on their face. They remind of a dirty basketball player who delivers a cheap shot elbow to a player from the opposing team as they pass him and then gives the ref his best "Who, Me," expression when he's whistled for the foul. The FFRF gave Christians a cheap shot just to let us know they are here, and are now acting as if they were unaware that their statement would offend anyone. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 4:32 PM:
" The sign has a far more subversive purpose than Castle Rocker would lead us to believe. As a result of any legal action or uproar that comes about after the sign is featured, the FFRF can pull the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment to demand that the state either feature their sign or remove all religiously affiliated paraphernalia from state grounds. The US and State Supreme courts have a firmly established line of precedence supporting this action. Thus, the Christian backlash against the sign will have the ironic result of removing all Christmas decoration from the Capitol. It seems like we are already well on our way toward this outcome with the increased SP officers and the theft of the sign already in the books! "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:54 PM:
" Why do we have any religious displays in the state capitol? The establishment clause of the first amendment requires separtaion of church and state. What do you think the first amendment means when it states: Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. That means all governments are not allowed to endorse any religion. It doesn't make it ok to somehow do a bs endorsement of all religions in the state rotunda. That's why separation is essential. I agree with Cowlitz1 you bible thumpers go crazy because of the reprehensive atheists have had their say. Now all religion will be out and that's as it should be and as the constitution requires. Stop jamming religion down everyones throat there should be no connection between any government entity, property, etc. and any kind of religion. That's the law, isn't a church on every block enouth for you people? "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:36 PM:
" You know what DW I don't hate christians. I'm just sick of their "I know the secrets of the universe attitude" when ten seconds of thinking about their beliefs would raise doubt. You know doubt, skeptism, the fellings intelligent people get when they are being fed a line of bull. Hell they say it will snow on Saturday, but I'll believe it if and only if I see it. I got that feeling in sunday school in 1st grade, the gaping holes in the logic were obvious then, I guess you swallowed it hook line and sinker, so congratulations, you must be a very accepting individual and the world is a pretty simple place for you. Smart people don't have it that easy. I'm just glad I don't believe in heaven, because I would want to go if were full of people like DW, hell would be a miracle. "
Old Charlie wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:08 PM:
" Something we all may want to consider.......Where would you rather be, believe in Jesus Christ and when you come to the end of this life, find that there is no heaven, no hereafter, or would you rather disbelieve and when you come to the end of this life, find out indeed, there is a heaven and life hereafter? "
Castle Rocker wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:37 PM:
" The amendment says it clearly, "congress shall make no LAW, respecting establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." SHALL MAKE NO LAW. It does not say SHALL NOT ALLOW CHRISTMAS TREES OR NATIVITY SCENES IN GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. The amendment was written to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. It was written to keep government from forcing any religion on the people or taking the people's right to practice the religion they choose. A Christmas Tree does neither. The FFRF sign also does neither, but is intentionally offensive and confrontational. Therefore it should be completely within the governor's rights to remove it and tell the FFRF that they can come back when they choose to play nice. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 10, 2008 1:23 PM:
" Castle Rocker: I understand what you are saying about the 1st Amendment, but I will restate this one more time. The supreme court has since expanded on their interpretation of the amendment. To put it simply the text of the 1st amendment does fully explain how we understand it, you also need to be familiar with the supreme court cases that interpreted the amendment, several of which I have listed in an earlier post. The establishment clause now means something a little different than it was initially intended. Before you complain that this is a clear violation of the framer's intent, consider the 3/5ths rule, which was also included in the constitution and, aside from the few KKK members that occassionally post, few people miss. "
DS wrote on Dec 12, 2008 5:42 PM:
" Seperation of Church and State. Does that mean that a church can't lobby, back a political canidate, voice there opnion on a law or polciy, etc? It is probably impossible to scientifically prove the exsistance of God, but can the Freedom from Religion Foundation prove that religion is "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds"? Did they put up this sign to enlighten and educate, or was it ment to anger? You decide. "
opinionated 1 wrote on Dec 13, 2008 3:03 PM:
" I can't believe so many people showed up . The sign isn't as offensive as it could of been , it just states the facts . Muslim extremists are an example of religion hardening hearts and enslaving minds . The sign didn't say religion hardens ALL hearts and enslaves All minds . Also , how can you say religion is not myth or superstition ? There is no difference between Superman , the boogey man , elfs , god , Scoobey Doo , unicorns , pixies or Darth Vader . They're all fictional charactors . Don't tell me you christians wouldn't laugh at a 45 year old man dressed up like Harry Potter praying to go to Hogwarts when he dies . Thats how you look to me . To still believe in fairy tales when you're an adult is hilarious to me . Remember people used to believe the world was flat too . They also believed is witch craft a few houndred years ago . Does anybody still believe in that ? "
Saturos wrote on Dec 15, 2008 12:50 PM:
" Which brings us to the topic of "If there's no God, how are we here?" What athiest can answer that logically? "
Saturos wrote on Dec 16, 2008 12:46 PM:
" All things in the bible can be explained with science. Not everything in the bible can be taken literally. English isn't a very poetic language so the bible sounds primative. Creation is logical because it's the only thing that makes sense. We had to have come from somewhere. "
enlightened wrote on Dec 16, 2008 9:09 PM:
" Sorry SaTuros..Nothing about Adam and Eve makes sense LOL Laughing out loud with a huge BELLY LAUGH!! Evolution makes much more sense.Honestly, some of the stories in the Bible truly are comical not to mention the horrific stories such as stoning a child because he was disrepectful. I always find it amusing that defenders of the Bible always use the English interpretation card, and they intrepret only the goodness and make excuses for the atrocities. I would bet the farm most of the rubbish in the Bible can not be substaniated by science. I could go on and on but it's time for my movie.. peace out "
Kelso Guy wrote on Dec 22, 2008 2:45 PM:
" There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive
[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet "
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive
[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet "
dirt1 wrote on Dec 22, 2008 11:55 PM:
" there all acting like children.everyone has a right to their opinion. if you don't like it or you think it might be wrong. who are you to judge others. freedom is what this country is about right(or maybe not)! i don't like it. i think it's rude! i say leave it their and pay no attrition to it. if you remove it. it should all be removed. separation of state and religion. just my opinion "
truthsquad wrote on Dec 24, 2008 10:24 AM:
" Would the gov. have allowed Hitler's book next to a Menorah? The atheists could have put up a symbol.....a big fat zero! "
boon-dogdotcom wrote on Dec 26, 2008 5:30 AM:
" the funnest part is People thinking there are "gods" in the first place..
so let me ask is the world still flat as well?.. how about a rain god or a sun god.. or a harvest god.. dont believe in those gods?? well why not? those gods had more followers then a christian god ever had.. oh wait thats right those are OLD gods and you are worshiping a NEW god..
hey let me ask you something.. did your god pop up out of no where show him/herself to you and say .. "I am I am.. I am your god!!" or did some other person convince you about how GREAT this god is?
the reason I ask is did those same belivers want you to attend a "Church" service.. you know.. the brain washing sessions where they can tell you the right thing is to give money to people (the preachers/cleriks) to help them spread the "word"?.. what is that saying.. (a fool and his money are soon parted).
Can you say and spell.. FOLLOWER! oh good.. thats you!
Time for you all to go hide behind your gods.. maybe all you God followers will off each other (in the name of god)and we can get on with living life.
christians - muslims.. a bunch of superstishous people to scared to open there eyes to the world they live in instead they want a saviour to save them?? (maybe save them from being themselfs).. hop along little rabbit. "
so let me ask is the world still flat as well?.. how about a rain god or a sun god.. or a harvest god.. dont believe in those gods?? well why not? those gods had more followers then a christian god ever had.. oh wait thats right those are OLD gods and you are worshiping a NEW god..
hey let me ask you something.. did your god pop up out of no where show him/herself to you and say .. "I am I am.. I am your god!!" or did some other person convince you about how GREAT this god is?
the reason I ask is did those same belivers want you to attend a "Church" service.. you know.. the brain washing sessions where they can tell you the right thing is to give money to people (the preachers/cleriks) to help them spread the "word"?.. what is that saying.. (a fool and his money are soon parted).
Can you say and spell.. FOLLOWER! oh good.. thats you!
Time for you all to go hide behind your gods.. maybe all you God followers will off each other (in the name of god)and we can get on with living life.
christians - muslims.. a bunch of superstishous people to scared to open there eyes to the world they live in instead they want a saviour to save them?? (maybe save them from being themselfs).. hop along little rabbit. "
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