Story Photos
 Dan Barker, co-president of the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., talks Monday about the sign his organization helped place at near a Christian nativity scene at the Capitol in Olympia. The sign promotes the observance of the winter solstice and is critical of religious beliefs. The organization has had a similar sign in the Wisconsin Capitol building in Madison for the past several years. Ted S. Warren / AP
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Atheists' holiday sign stolen, returned
Friday, December 5, 2008 10:43 PM PST
By Curt Woodward
The Associated Press
Printable version
E-mail this articleOLYMPIA — An anti-religion placard posted alongside Christmas displays drew a thief, a preacher, a part-time elf and a security detail to the state Capitol on Friday, as a weeklong uproar over religious speech hit a bizarre peak.
It all started Monday, when the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation unveiled a winter solstice sign in the grand marble hallways around the Capitol Rotunda.
The sign’s atheistic message — reading in part that “religion is but myth and superstition” — drew top billing on conservative commentator Bill O’Reilly’s TV show.
Several days of angry messages to Democratic Gov. Chris Gregoire followed, and on Friday morning, someone removed the atheists’ sign and apparently hustled it out of the Capitol.
A radio station in Seattle, about 60 miles north, soon reported that an unidentified man had dropped off the pilfered placard, and the Washington State Patrol dispatched someone to pick it up.
Meanwhile, people flocked to the Capitol to check out the crime scene, set up their own protest signs and speak to a bank of TV news cameras jamming the hallway.
Among the crowd was James Pritchard of Seattle, who wore a pointy green hat and passed out candy-striped business cards proclaiming him “J. Elfus, Special Assistant to the Claus.”
Despite his obvious preference for Christmas, Pritchard said he wants everyone to celebrate any holiday they like. But he was offended by the atheists’ message, which he felt was designed mostly to mock religion.
“I heard about what was going on down here, and we had to order a truckload of coal,” he said.
And that was just the start.
Pastor Ken Hutcherson, a Christian preacher well-known here for his commentary on social issues, also arrived to put up a sign that flipped the atheists’ message into an affirmation of religion. Another small group put up a handmade poster reading, “The fool hath said in his heart, ’There is no God.”’
Several other parties submitted applications to state groundskeepers, seeking to display everything from a set of Nativity balloons to an aluminum Festivus pole — an homage to the invented “holiday for the rest of us” coined by the long-running comedy show “Seinfeld.”
Burly State Patrol troopers paced the hallway the whole time, presumably guarding against any other shenanigans. Statues of the Holy Family remained undisturbed in their cedar stable.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation set up a replacement solstice poster until the proper sign could be recovered. The stolen sign was back in place Friday evening, with a new addition: “Thou shalt not steal.” The state also roped off the area where the atheists’ sign and competing displays are set up.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation has displayed a similar sign in the Wisconsin Capitol for more than a decade, and has gotten used to this sort of response, said Annie Laurie Gaylor of Madison, Wis., a co-president. For the first few years, opponents of the anti-religious message there turned the sign to face the wall, removed it, and even showered it with acid, she said.
“It is interesting that our views are so threatening that they have to be stolen and stifled completely,” Gaylor said.
Gregoire and Republican Attorney General Rob McKenna have defended the atheists’ right to display their sign in the Capitol.
The state began granting broader access to religious displays a few years back, after a Jewish group added a Hanukkah menorah to the long-standing display of a massive evergreen Christmas tree — these days called a “holiday tree” — sponsored by the Association of Washington Business.
A local real estate agent sued after his subsequent request for a Nativity scene was denied, but the case was settled and the creche installed. This year is the first time the Freedom From Religion Foundation added its holiday message to the mix.
State carpenter Jim Buenzli, who first noticed the missing atheist sign Friday morning, said he was fed up by the whole furor. That’s why he applied for permission to place the Festivus pole, which he planned to purchase and install next week.
“I got sick of the way these things were going, so I wanted to put some humor into it,” Buenzli said. “They’re making a big mockery out of our state on the news.”
AP Writers Doug Esser, Manuel Valdes and Rachel La Corte contributed to this report.
Related article:
Gregoire's office deluged with calls over atheist sign (Dec. 3)
Overeducated wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:26 AM:
" Actually many Atheists celebrate Newtonmas instead of Christmas. Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25th 366 years ago. So Happy Newtonmas to all of my Atheist, Agnostic, Free-thinking, Naturalist, Humanist etc. friends who place reason ahead of fanaticism. May the arbitrary beginning of a new calendar year bring you hope and new intellectual pursuits. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:55 AM:
" No swan just a christian jackass. There should be no religious displays in the capitol and this issue would be moot. To bad christians have to jam chirstmas down everyones elses throat, I'm already sick of it beyond belief. Happy HOLIDAYS. "
skeezix wrote on Dec 5, 2008 12:59 PM:
" Cheney, I'd rather be called a Christian jackass than demonstrate that I'm just a simple horse's ass who can't spell. Merry Christmas. "
mohlers wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:00 PM:
" Wait a minute JD, how is overeducated showing ignorance? Newton was born on that date... the rest of his comment is apparently tongue in cheek humor... so who is being ignorant... the one with the ability to laugh or the one who is so self righteous... hmmm? "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:00 PM:
" cheney119-It would be respectful and civil if an atheist group put up some kind of symbol of their faith everything would be fine to. But they don't have a symbol they have some kind of creed next to the nativity scene that tears down the beliefs represented by the scene. They need to promote their own beliefs not tear down others. "
unnown01 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:13 PM:
" what happen to thow shall that not steal just another display how christians bend there dilusional beliefs to there own will when it soots them "
Simple Man wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:35 PM:
" Poor poor Ol Saint Nick, what a shame of whats happening to our great country. "
ab wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:35 PM:
" Cheney, "HOLIDAYS" = HOLY DAYS. I am glad you have some sort of belief system... This country was founded on Christian-Judeo Beliefs and it is partly from that that we have the freedoms to believe in whatever we want to. And nobody is cramming anything down your throat, this is a HOLYDAY that has been celebrated by many countries and people for longer than most can think of. This does not mean you have to imbibe on this tradition but the rest of us wish twithout your senile thoughts... "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:47 PM:
" The displays have no place in the state capitol. We have separation of church and state and that includes christmas trees. What good intentioned knucklehead's idea were these displays in the first place? skeezix, jackass is right, you must be one hell of a christian. What denomination are you hypocrite christian. You only prove me right with your venom, isn't there something in the bible about love your enemies, and turn the other cheek? You probably do follow anything else in t he bible either. I hate christmas, I'm free to do so in America, stop jamming it down our throats. "
atta wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:54 PM:
" ab: This land was founded by Native Americans.
castle rocker: You're correct, the Atheist group should have stated their beliefs which are: religions are based on faith and belief, not evidence.
Our judicial system is based on evidence, not belief and faith. "
castle rocker: You're correct, the Atheist group should have stated their beliefs which are: religions are based on faith and belief, not evidence.
Our judicial system is based on evidence, not belief and faith. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:55 PM:
" unnown01 there are some ideas so horrible that christians have to commit crimes to wipe them out. They can lie cheat and steal to get their way. That's because most of them are just hypocrites, like the people posting today. As usual, christians are the worst possible advertisement for christianity. I'm sure we'll have dozens of more posters to prove my point. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:58 PM:
" Labor Day, Independence Day, Memorial Day, Martin Luther King Day, aren't those holidays? Secular holidays, sort of like the word has come to mean, any day off ie holiday. "
Nintendo Fan180 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:58 PM:
" I hate how this country was so Christian and now we are allowing all of this Atheistic crap. "
American First wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:11 PM:
" Heywood Jablomi- Nobody believes atheists don't have the right to express your views. But why do atheists insist on doing so at Christmas time!? Why don't you express your views in January, or July? Doing so at Christmas time is an attack, it's intended to be offensive, not to innocently express your views!! Don't pretend otherwise, it's timing and you know it's intentional! I support your right of expression as an American, as long as it's done so civilly and peacefully. This is not civil! As for the individual that removed it, if he did so without permission then he's wrong and should be punished. But it's no different then the socialists who destroyed the Rossi sign in my yard, I hope the police waste no more time investigating this crime then they did chasing who destroyed my sign.... "
American First wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:15 PM:
" Cheney119, Nice you just described the liberal thought process to unnown01. Now the cats out of the bag... "
Kelsonian wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:17 PM:
" I hate how this country was so Christian and now we are allowing all of this Atheistic crap, just to have Christians whine about it. This is America people... tolerance and acceptance. If your Christian faith isn't strong enough to put up with one little sign, then you aren't much of a Christian. "
greenbean wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:18 PM:
" This land was not founded by Native Americans, but they did live here. This COUNTRY was founded on Christian beliefs. The reason the pilgrims came her was to enjoy freedom to express their personal religious beliefs. Somehow the government allowing another group to post a sign on public property that tears down and mocks the religious displays of other groups is just wrong. "
TheGenius wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:27 PM:
" Maybe whomever took the sign wanted to unite it with it's spiritual twin, the "Impeach Bush" Christmas Tree, whoops, I mean Holiday Shrubbery, ornament. "
ItsKarma wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:28 PM:
" We came to this country to escape the tyranny of the church.
I don't care what you believe, you have every right to believe it. You don't have the right to use my government to further your beliefs. "
I don't care what you believe, you have every right to believe it. You don't have the right to use my government to further your beliefs. "
grams wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:29 PM:
" The point is that Wshington Law does allow representations of religious symbolism on public property. The First Amendment allows freedom of speech. As a conservative my only critic on this issue is that the epistle presented by the Atheists is critical and demeaning of others who believe differently. Until the Manorrah starts to preach and Mary or Joseph start to sling insults at other relegious symbols then I think the atheist display could have in fact been less acidic but simply a statement of good will and "a shared holiday" greeting. Honey catches more flys than vinigar. And Skeezix, lots of us can't spell too well but most readers can still understand the context of our thought. And as Cheney119 mentioned, isn't a Christian supposed to turn the other cheek? Last time I looked a jackass and a Horses Ass were two different things. Tch Tch. Cheney119 and I agree to disagree on most things but by gosh his right to freedom of speech is as great as yours or mine. I think this sign was in poor taste and thus demeaned Atheistic belief. Sort of like dressing Mary in a bikini. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:35 PM:
" Actually the notion expressed in the sign is remarkably similar to the beliefs that many of our founding father's held dear. Most were Deists who believed in a singular natural god that created the natural world, but not the suprstitious trappings of popular judeo-christianity. They generally did not believe in the story of Christ as it is represented in the bible, miracles etc, substituting a perception of God that was much like the unmoved-mover conception. Two centuries ago most protestants protested Christmas as "popery" and a trapping of the Catholic Church. Practicing the holiday was outlawed in Boston during the 1650s. It was only through the portal of the popular fiction of Dickens and others that the holiday began to regain some support in the US. Christmas lights didn't come about until 1901, exterior decorations in the 1940s. By this time advertisers had recognized the potential windfall of the holiday and had standardized our popular image of Santa Claus to assist in the commercialization of the holiday. Now from-mid November to the holiday American citizens are constantly bombarded with messages meant to increase their consumption and purchases. So, moral of the story, the great tradition that you are all defending is a product of American advertising and popular fiction that came about in the 1900s. "
crowsfeet wrote on Dec 5, 2008 2:55 PM:
" Just believe what you believe, means we are all wrong in someones eyes the end results are all the same-death. "
LH wrote on Dec 5, 2008 3:05 PM:
" The church has no right to force us to vote a certain way & the state has no right to force us to worship in any certain way, that's all there is to "seperation of church & state". "
Louie wrote on Dec 5, 2008 3:08 PM:
" It is my feeling that no religious materials should be on display in the State Capitol in Olympia or Washington DC. Keep religion out of politics!! "
castle rocker wrote on Dec 5, 2008 3:11 PM:
" Cheney119-Where to start? First of all, there is no such thing and "seperation of Church and State," it doesn't exist. The phrase is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a figurative "wall of separation" between church and state. Basically he says the the amendment creates that wall but nowhere in the constitution is there anything referring to a "Seperation of Church and State." If you read the first amendment carefully you see that instead of a wall it's more of a one way street. The amendment was written to keep government out of religion, and says nothing about keeping religion out of government. "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 3:23 PM:
" This controversy and the strident tone of some of the commenters on this thread is exactly why there should be an absolute separation of church and state in this country and this state. No one is telling Christians that they can't celebrate the birth of their god. They can do it anywhere and everywhere to their heart's content -- just NOT on public property.
What is so freaking difficult about this concept? Why do they insist on having the WHOLE pie and not just their fair-share piece of it? "
What is so freaking difficult about this concept? Why do they insist on having the WHOLE pie and not just their fair-share piece of it? "
kelsograd wrote on Dec 5, 2008 3:24 PM:
" So we have this gut from Wisconsin at the capitol and these people from Westboro here in Longview. Obviously we need better border security! "
Overeducated wrote on Dec 5, 2008 3:42 PM:
" Just curious, can any Christians count high enough to tell me how many times God and or Christian are used in the constitution? Thats right 0, zero, none. I guess my ignorance is really showing now. "
NJGZ wrote on Dec 5, 2008 4:41 PM:
" "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..." 1st Amendment. The founding fathers did not want a state sponsered church (like the Church of England). It does not, however, say "seperation of church and state" anywhere in the constitution. What it does do is give everyone of us the right to express our beliefs in whatever way we deem right or necessary. Faith, or lack thereof, is a right given to us by our founding fathers. That said, each of us (legistators included) make decisions based on our own codes and morals, many of them based on religious beliefs or mores. To say that religion does not affect or should not affect government is rather naive. I enjoy my religious rights, and therefore am glad they are protected. "
RTLL wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:00 PM:
" Nintendo Fan: "Allowing all this atheistic crap" is exactly what is supposed to happen. This is America, remember? We enjoy many freedoms, including freedom of religion.....and freedom *from* religion. I don't think one group should go out of their way to trample the traditions of another, but, still, all citiziens are freedom to believe (or not believe) to their heart's content. What is it about so many Christians that they are intolerant of any other religion? Or lack of religion? "
Huggygramma wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:01 PM:
" I remember last year when there was a huge uproar about NOT allowing a Christmas tree at the Capitol. So, the Christians got their tree and it is very pretty. It also means that other belief systems have the right to express their beliefs, too. While I think the placement of the atheists' "decoration" was a matter of extremely poor taste, the last time I checked, tackiness wasn't illegal. Why not just move the stupid thing to another part of the room, and punch out for the day. "
wsugrad2005 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:17 PM:
" As a Christian, I do not agree with the sentiment of the sign in question. However, the individuals have the right to promote their message and I do not agree with the decision to steal their sign. I am not threatened by what it says in the least.
Unfortunately, many Christians feel attacked by these types of messages because other groups seem to be trying to silence them and take away their rights to express their beliefs in a huge variety of ways. Some groups seem to act as if the right to not be offended is a protected right. If that were truly a right, then basically all speech would be outrageously limited. What harm does it really do for someone to wish you Merry Christmas? You could always just treat it as if they wished you to have a nice day instead of making it a huge problem.
While not in the Constitution, the founding fathers did refer to God several times in the Declaration of Independence. If you read more of their writing, you will find many references to God, a Creator, and even (feigned shock) the Bible. To try to say the founders of this country did not use Judeo-Christian ideas as a foundation ignores the totality of such texts by narrowing in on just those ideas which support your viewpoint. Try reading Christianity and the Constitution by John Eidsmoe is an excellent book which delves into the founders ideas using their own writing. "
Unfortunately, many Christians feel attacked by these types of messages because other groups seem to be trying to silence them and take away their rights to express their beliefs in a huge variety of ways. Some groups seem to act as if the right to not be offended is a protected right. If that were truly a right, then basically all speech would be outrageously limited. What harm does it really do for someone to wish you Merry Christmas? You could always just treat it as if they wished you to have a nice day instead of making it a huge problem.
While not in the Constitution, the founding fathers did refer to God several times in the Declaration of Independence. If you read more of their writing, you will find many references to God, a Creator, and even (feigned shock) the Bible. To try to say the founders of this country did not use Judeo-Christian ideas as a foundation ignores the totality of such texts by narrowing in on just those ideas which support your viewpoint. Try reading Christianity and the Constitution by John Eidsmoe is an excellent book which delves into the founders ideas using their own writing. "
AmericanGirl wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:31 PM:
" To have atheist celebrate our holiday you know the one (Christ)mas is kinda like whites celebrating black history month. "
inhisservice wrote on Dec 5, 2008 6:13 PM:
" Actually a very high percentage of our founding fathers were Christians and many wrote volumes about their beliefs.
Seperation of Church and State was meant to keep the Government out of the Church, not the other way around.
Jesus was well documented in His time for the miricles He did. Our system of keeping time reflects it. He would be very dissapointed to see the comments here, but would love us all the same inspite of ourselves... "
Seperation of Church and State was meant to keep the Government out of the Church, not the other way around.
Jesus was well documented in His time for the miricles He did. Our system of keeping time reflects it. He would be very dissapointed to see the comments here, but would love us all the same inspite of ourselves... "
Ms. Z wrote on Dec 5, 2008 6:13 PM:
" Having whites celebrate black history month makes perfect sense since there have been many contributions to society which I am sure you enjoy which should be celebrated. "
aviator wrote on Dec 5, 2008 6:15 PM:
" Wow. And the debate that has been going on for years and years keeps going. Good to know that the tradition of arguing about who's right or wrong about religion and the holiday season is more alive than getting along with others and other good things. Sheese people, there's a high road here. Sadly it's not very traveled. "
Im_not_saying wrote on Dec 5, 2008 6:19 PM:
" American girl - So, why can't a white person celebrate black history month? Or Cinco de Mayo for that matter? Freedom of religon also includes a lack thereof - I have an atheist relative that sends my kids christmas presents, So you say there's something wrong with that? It's too bad that "american" around the world is looked at as a four-letter word.
To have freedom is to be free - and not infect the minds of others with your blather. When we have tolerance of other cultures, religions, and people - then, and only then will we be truly free. To preach your religion and then shove it down my throat isn't american, that's communist. I say if they want to show support for their religon that they should be as free to do so as the person that hangs christmas lights or a menorah in their yard. BTW - I am a christian, just not a zealot. "
To have freedom is to be free - and not infect the minds of others with your blather. When we have tolerance of other cultures, religions, and people - then, and only then will we be truly free. To preach your religion and then shove it down my throat isn't american, that's communist. I say if they want to show support for their religon that they should be as free to do so as the person that hangs christmas lights or a menorah in their yard. BTW - I am a christian, just not a zealot. "
jimr wrote on Dec 5, 2008 7:16 PM:
" As long as displays of Christmas, in the relgious meaning, are allowed in any publically owned facility then ALL manner of displays should be allowed as long as it is not overbearing. I am not going to get into the who is right and who is wrong arguments. Simply put - all of us pay our taxes and, with that, all of us should be able to express our beliefs in public owned facilities REGARDLESS of how that display goes against your idealism.
This country has been called the "melting pot" of many different beliefs and ideals. We need to return to that attitude. Allow the differences to be shown. Let your children see the differences and express to them in a positive why THAT is what has made this country great.
If banning such displays becomes reality it only further weakens what this country is all about. "
This country has been called the "melting pot" of many different beliefs and ideals. We need to return to that attitude. Allow the differences to be shown. Let your children see the differences and express to them in a positive why THAT is what has made this country great.
If banning such displays becomes reality it only further weakens what this country is all about. "
opinionated 1 wrote on Dec 5, 2008 7:35 PM:
" Christmas is just a retail holiday . Stores exploiting people that believe in fairy tales . When you're old enough to see there isn't a Santa Claus shouldn't you be intelligent enough to know the bible is as real as Mother Goose ? "
Wise Old Mom wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:38 PM:
" The origin of the Separation of Church & State actually comes from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury church. In the letter he was stating that although the state should not be involve in the affairs of the church, he was thankful for and welcomed the church's input (and prayers) into the affairs of government. And who says it was a Christian that stole the sign? "
sensible girl wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:59 PM:
" I wonder how many atheists in this discussion have Christmas trees at home.. "
straightup wrote on Dec 5, 2008 9:34 PM:
" Hey, if those who don't want to celebrate Christmas they don't have to. There is an All Fools Day; April 1. Everybody can fit in and be satisfied. "
Old Charlie wrote on Dec 5, 2008 9:44 PM:
" As NJGZ so well stated, seperation of church and state is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. However, I wish it was possible to seperate thes damn atheist from Christmas! "
dude wrote on Dec 6, 2008 12:13 AM:
" I agree the sign demeans and doesn't celebrates anything. We wouldn't alow that behavior anywhere else (except in politics). Therefore, the sign should go. "
mom of four wrote on Dec 6, 2008 12:34 AM:
" American Girl you are so right. I am white and I don't teach my kids about black history month. I don't think any of it should be taught in schools either. Our socity wants everyone to be treated equal then get rid of affirmitive action, black history month. "
teacher wrote on Dec 6, 2008 1:01 AM:
" Jesus is the reason for the season. It's too bad these hate groups are allowed to express their antireligious beliefs. Christians need to have the same protection from hate groups that homosexuals do. "
unnown01 wrote on Dec 6, 2008 2:33 AM:
" i thought i would take a little time out of my day and hope to bring a little reality to some people that believe in god you are alone in this world and if there is a next you will be alone there to it does not matter if if you go to heaven and you walk on streets of gold or what ever your illusion of heaven is or you go to hell and you burn for all eternity cause guess what your body stays here i can prove that we set aside hundreds of acres to bury people so since your body stays here you feel no pain happieness or sarrow its over you came you lived your gone so make the most of it while you are here and accept that "
Simple Man wrote on Dec 6, 2008 3:18 AM:
" Belief in religion is falling quickly in America. So is our morals and work ethic. So is our economy. All while crime is on a rise. Could all of these be related? "
Trubbled wrote on Dec 6, 2008 7:34 AM:
" Happy Festivus, everyone. Don't forget to shine your Festivus pole. "
SIMPLE MAN wrote on Dec 6, 2008 8:19 AM:
" If you think Christmas is just a retail holiday then try spending it overseas away from all of your friends and families and let me know what you think about Christmas then. "
Im_not_saying wrote on Dec 6, 2008 9:43 AM:
" Well mom of four its good to know that you keep the tradition of racism and hatred going on - It helps to show my kids right from wrong. "
49ermario wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:09 AM:
" Atheists and ACLU (Anti-Christ legion of the unGODly) will get exactly what they want in the end-absolute seperation from GOD!! "
Amazed By Ignorance wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:55 AM:
" Atheists, have always amused me. To disbelieve something, you first have to accept the possiblity it exists, yes? Now, if there is as you believe no God? Why bother placing these signs in the beginning? Please don't insult me, and try to hide behind "freedom of speech". They're there to simply rock the boat. Sure seems like a lot of time and effort is being put into something that you don't think exists. Hypocrasy? Discuss...and have a nice day. "
RTLL wrote on Dec 6, 2008 12:03 PM:
" Simple Man, being religious is no guarantee of being moral and having a good work ethic. Lots of people have both qualities and have never set foot in a church. Amazed by ignorance, yes, it looks like the Atheists are just trying to rock the boat and I don't approve of them mocking religion just for the sake of doing so. I think its mostly a protest (poorly targeted, in this case)against the RW Christains who want to impose their beliefs on all Americans. We'll see more of this anti-religion sort of thing in the future if the Christian right makes a comeback. "
tazman22 wrote on Dec 6, 2008 1:53 PM:
" I hope none of you atheist benefit any from christmas and diffently not celebrate anything remotely close to christmas. That would be against what you believe. Being in the military, I can tell you there is no such thing as an atheist in a Fox hole under fire. "
Amazed By Ignorance wrote on Dec 6, 2008 1:57 PM:
" Apologies for posting twice but, I have a question. Do atheists accept Christmas gifts? "
Simple Man wrote on Dec 6, 2008 3:03 PM:
" Nothing in life is guaranteed. But no one believes any of it is related? You would have to be ignorant to not believe it. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 6, 2008 5:38 PM:
" Perhaps one of the most famous athiests of all time Professor Antony Flew came to an interesting conclusion after years and years of study. I think all self proclaimed athiests would do well to read what his findings were. "
RTLL wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:10 PM:
" I don't know if all or any or none of the proclaimed Atheists accept Christmas gifts. I know many agnositics, at least, who celebrate Christmas as a traditional thing rather than a religious event. I know some who believe that Jesus was a mere mortal, not as a deity of any sort....and I reckon they can celebrate his birthday if they want to. What the heck...its a free country, as they say. Besides, a lot of the "Good Christians" I know are pretty selective about which Christian precepts they adhere to...and happily disregard the rest :-). "
opinionated 1 wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:45 PM:
" I do take part in Christmas . I don't celebrate the birth of a ficticious god's son but I do enjoy getting together with family and exchanging gifts . Amazed By Ignorance - I disbelieve in Batman , do I have to accept the possibility he exists ? SIMPLE MAN - What are you talking about . Don't cry to me because you or someone else you know is overseas . Unless you were kidnapped , you are there by choice . You also have it wrong in your last post . It should have read you have to be ignorant to believe it . Why would any itelligent person believe in something nobody has ever really seen . If you think god is real , what about other stuff ? Do you still believe in Santa Claus ? What about the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy ? Why not believe in reality ? "
Im_not_saying wrote on Dec 6, 2008 11:55 PM:
" I believe that New York Exists, even though I have never seen it. I also believe that men have walked on the moon, although not only can I only see that on TV, they brought back rocks. I also believe in the heavens above, although they too may be a figment of my imagination. Your lack of faith is nothing but a lack of what others have. Perhaps you are not as much an athiest as you are jealous of those who actually do have faith. I know there is a God, and I don't have to see him to believe it. "
Simple Man wrote on Dec 7, 2008 12:41 AM:
" Its ignorant to believe the decline in morals, work ethic and rise in crime are not related to the decline in religious beliefs. Either way its not worth arguing about. And its nice to know that some people are so grateful for the 220,000+ American Military personnel stationed overseas to secure your liberty and give you the right to believe in whatever you want. "
feistyone wrote on Dec 7, 2008 7:39 AM:
" If Atheists don't like our Christian ways, why don't they find an island to live on? "
Mom of 6 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 8:43 AM:
" Simple man-"Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors and is often called upon by mariners who are in danger of drowning or being shipwrecked." Also to refer from Wikipedia " Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.[12]"
So I give gifts and make turkey, but do not pray or attend any sort of christian themed services. My children attend church 2 x's a week because they have been allowed to choose. Isn't that a luxury? Being able to choose? The atheists and everyone else have equal opportunity to show their beliefs. Geez, all those signs on the sides of roads reading" Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and Thou shalt be saved"
I have yet to see an atheist sign on the side of the road,"Worship the Earth, and it will be clean"
I am glad to not be part of the feeble minded masses who need that scapegoat to blame our problems on and when you are too weak to make change for yourself, you pray to a dead man? My life and the morals I live by, are of my own choices. "
So I give gifts and make turkey, but do not pray or attend any sort of christian themed services. My children attend church 2 x's a week because they have been allowed to choose. Isn't that a luxury? Being able to choose? The atheists and everyone else have equal opportunity to show their beliefs. Geez, all those signs on the sides of roads reading" Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and Thou shalt be saved"
I have yet to see an atheist sign on the side of the road,"Worship the Earth, and it will be clean"
I am glad to not be part of the feeble minded masses who need that scapegoat to blame our problems on and when you are too weak to make change for yourself, you pray to a dead man? My life and the morals I live by, are of my own choices. "
Mom of 6 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 8:52 AM:
" Christmas or Christ's Mass is one of the most popular Christian celebrations as well as one of the most globally recognized midwinter celebrations. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of the God Incarnate or Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth, later known as Jesus Christ. The birth is observed on December 25, which was the WINTER SOLSTICE upon establishment of the Julian Calendar. Banned by the Catholic Church in its infancy as a pagan practice stemming out of the Sol Invictus celebrations,[10] Christian churches eventually recognized the sustained practices as a Christian festival in various cultures within the past several hundred years, allowing much of the folklore and traditions of local pagan festivals to be preserved.
I love Wikipedia, so much information there. "
I love Wikipedia, so much information there. "
DW wrote on Dec 7, 2008 8:57 AM:
" I say we make it a priority to let the liberals, atheists, gays, anti-gunners, etc., run the government and see how good they are at it. oops I forgot, they already do, and were 15 trillion in dept. Well so much for that idea. Maybe just legalize pot and let everyone go through life higher than a kite so they won't know the pain I'm in. "
RTLL wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:55 AM:
" Feistyone: "...go find an island to live on" ??? Huh? Please tell me I'm reading you wrong. Are you saying that living in the United States is something that only Christians should be allowed to enjoy? That sounds very un-American to me, not at all patriotic. America is the land of many freedoms, including religious freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, etc. Our brave soldiers have not gone to war and died just so these freedoms could be enjoyed ONLY by Christians. If Christians want to live in a land where only ONE religion is tolerated, where all thought and expression is centered only on Christian beliefs...well....maybe THEY should go find an island to live on. Or maybe find some other country where freedoms are not allowed. "
Ms. Z wrote on Dec 7, 2008 11:49 AM:
" RTLL, I have read many of your posts and you are breaking a cardinal rule here. You are writing well thought out, reasonable, and *gasp* horror of horrors, you are using logic. Totally not allowed! "
Castle Rocker wrote on Dec 7, 2008 1:31 PM:
" opinionated 1-You disbeleive in Batman and because you know that he does not exist, you do not have to post any signs that he does not exist. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 1:35 PM:
" I really want to hand it too the good commonsense agnostics that have said exactly what needs to be said in my absence, opinionated 1 in particular. Amazed By Ignorance I don't believe, there is difference than disbelieve, do you speaka englace. I don't think you are thinking very clearly if you can't even proprely phrase the question. I'm an agnostic, I don't believe. But I don't know, and mostly I DON'T CARE, I really couldn't care any less. Do you christians comprehend that concept? "
DW wrote on Dec 7, 2008 2:58 PM:
" Well Cheney119, you just stumbled on the problem with Christians. We do care. We care a lot, and we care about people like you. Someday you will see the light, and hopefully for your soul's sake, it is before you die. But until then I'm sure you will keep spewing your hate, and through all that, believe it or not, there will still be Christians that care about you. "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 4:12 PM:
" But why do you Christianists find it so compelling to force the government to display your superstitions? You can't drive five blocks in any direction from the state capitol building without seeing one or more churches. Why can't you follow the biblical injunction from the man in whom you profess such sound belief and "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto god that which is god's"? Is that such a difficult concept that you just don't get it? "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 4:21 PM:
" If there's a heaven and you're in it DW then it would be hell. You think this is hate? It is simply indifference. I don't give and damn what you belive! My soul is none of you god damned business. I'm an agnostic there may be a god, heaven, all the garbage you profess. I just don't care what a jerk like you thinks. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 4:52 PM:
" So DW you care, you are a judgemental condesending joker, yet you care? If heaven is full of "people" like you NO THANKS. You call what I'm spewing is hate? No; it is complete indifference to your beliefs. The reason you say it's hate is because it doesn't fall into lock step with you narrow minded world view. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 5:09 PM:
" Look at the figures, christians are the republicans. Farnsworth68 they want to force us to believe their nonsense. If going to heaven (which I have absolutely zero evidence of) means ending up spending eternity with people like you DW, and the rest of your authoritian ilk, no thanks. The fact is you know no more about eternity than I, you just believe you know. Sort of like Bush believed in WMD's. Take your belief's in one hand and sneeze in the other; see which one fills up faster. "
biasmedia wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:06 PM:
" wow you read this post and see that cheney119 got told off and found in a lie a bought the separating of church and state in the bill of rights so he come back like he always with spew out some hate fill comments that TDN always allow.
the problem with everyone like chenney119 and the atheists is they are the one that try to push their beliefs on others and are the ones filled with hate, hmm guess that should tell us something a bought our world "
the problem with everyone like chenney119 and the atheists is they are the one that try to push their beliefs on others and are the ones filled with hate, hmm guess that should tell us something a bought our world "
Castle Rocker wrote on Dec 7, 2008 11:05 PM:
" Cheyenne119-You're right, we should be reasonable. My belief that there is a higher being is ridiculous. You're belief that a huge explosion made something from nothing and then on one of the spherial rocks that was created from said explosion, we humans evolved from pond scum. That is much simpler and makes much more sense. "
swan wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:46 AM:
" Trees, gifts, lights, signs, parades, and bells have no inherent religious connotations. Let us all celebrate this time of season in whatever fashion we choose. I bid Peace on Earth and Good will toward Men. "
banana hammock wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:21 PM:
" Cheney119 was it a Christian who took the sign? I didn’t see that in the article.
Until we know maybe we shouldnt place blame. "
Until we know maybe we shouldnt place blame. "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:06 PM:
" Come on BH, who else WOULD steal it? Fellow atheists? "Secular Progressives", in the breathless -- and deathless -- designation of Bill Orally? Give me a freakin' break already.
All of this could have been avoided had the state hewed to the Separation of Church and State philosophy. We have REAL problems facing this state and this nation. Why has this particular one been elevated to World War Three status among the so-called faithful? Everyone who believes in the concept of Separation of Church and State is welcome to join Americans United for Separation of Church and State (www.au.org) and lets all fight back against the theocracy of the Religious Right (which, ironically, is neither...) "
All of this could have been avoided had the state hewed to the Separation of Church and State philosophy. We have REAL problems facing this state and this nation. Why has this particular one been elevated to World War Three status among the so-called faithful? Everyone who believes in the concept of Separation of Church and State is welcome to join Americans United for Separation of Church and State (www.au.org) and lets all fight back against the theocracy of the Religious Right (which, ironically, is neither...) "
DW wrote on Dec 8, 2008 5:40 PM:
" O.K. farnsworth68 I want you to tell me where in the constitution it is written "separation of church and state". Please enlighten us dolts. But before you go on some anti-religious rant, let me help you with something. The original idea was to keep the state out of the church, not the other way around. If the founders of the this nation believed the way you do, then why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency? Why does the Supreme Court building have carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments? Why are our Presidents sworn in on a Bible and saying the words "So help me God"? Why are Chaplins on the public payroll? Why is God mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on it's monunments and buildings. "
Raven wrote on Dec 8, 2008 6:01 PM:
" Didn't you guys know? It's only okay to express your religious beliefs...but ONLY if you're Christian or Catholic. Yeesh get with the program people. All those other silly religions out there are just made up! "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:35 PM:
" DW, the Founders had absolutely nothing to do with putting In God We Trust on our currency -- it first appeared on coins during the Civil War and didn't appear on paper money until 1957. And before you start slinging the US Constitution around so recklessly, I'd suggest you actually READ it. Your ignorance of it is strikingly profound. In the interest of space, I won't rebut ALL of your points, but one should suffice: Article II Section 1 of the US Constitution provides that the president, 'Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."' Nowhere in there does it say the words "so help me god" nor is there a requirement that he (or she) place a hand on the bible. That is a convention, but it is NOT a constitutional requirement. Also note the whole 'swear (or affirm)' thing. That 'affirm' was put in there for those who do not believe in god and therefore would feel hypocritical if they were to 'swear' to a god they didn't believe in. And that is also why, if you testify in court, you are NOT required to 'swear so help me god', regardless of what you see on television. "
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."' Nowhere in there does it say the words "so help me god" nor is there a requirement that he (or she) place a hand on the bible. That is a convention, but it is NOT a constitutional requirement. Also note the whole 'swear (or affirm)' thing. That 'affirm' was put in there for those who do not believe in god and therefore would feel hypocritical if they were to 'swear' to a god they didn't believe in. And that is also why, if you testify in court, you are NOT required to 'swear so help me god', regardless of what you see on television. "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:28 PM:
" And here's one more: Article VI of the US Constitution holds, in part, 'The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.' Get that? NO RELIGIOUS TEST. If that's not a clear indication of the intent of the Founders -- specifically the chief architects of the constitution, Jefferson and Madison, both of whom were Deists who neither acknowledged nor recognized the divinity of Joshua bar Joseph -- aka Jesus -- that there is a separation of church and state, I don't know what is. "
DW wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:44 AM:
" Farnsworth68, I don't want any religious test for any public official, unless of course they belong to al-qaida. Here's my problem, I don't understand how a religious symbol can be so offensive to a none believer. On the other hand if one of these non-believers puts a crucifix in a jar of urine with the intent of pissing me off, they will have succeeded. So you do your thing and I'll do mine, but for the majority of us that are Christians in this country leave your hatred for us at home, it isn't very productive in the public arena. "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 3:28 PM:
" Thank you, DW. I could say the same thing to you: "it isn't very productive in the public arena" to insist on the partisan religious display in question. While I personally am a non-theist, I do not find these religious symbols particularly offensive, just inappropriate.
In the long run, it's much better to cleave to that wall of separation and leave religious displays in the churchyards and on other private, non-public land where they belong. The major problem with the conflation of church and state is that it generally results in both bad policy and bad theology.
We have major problems confronting us a society, as an economy, as a nation, and quasi-entertaining news-mcnugget sideshows such as this do not get us anywhere along the road to resolving those issues. Think how much real good could have been done in the time and with the effort it is taking to continue squabbling over this.
The FFRF does not do its cause any good to create these confrontations, but they won't stop. Americans United for Separation of Church and State (an organization that has been around for 61 years) consists of members from all shades of gradation of faith, from militant atheists to fundamentalist ministers and Orthodox rabbis. We all believe that church and state should be kept separate. That separation has resulted in the history of this republic a much freer exercise of religion -- and non-religion -- than you will find in any other nation. Let's keep it that way. "
In the long run, it's much better to cleave to that wall of separation and leave religious displays in the churchyards and on other private, non-public land where they belong. The major problem with the conflation of church and state is that it generally results in both bad policy and bad theology.
We have major problems confronting us a society, as an economy, as a nation, and quasi-entertaining news-mcnugget sideshows such as this do not get us anywhere along the road to resolving those issues. Think how much real good could have been done in the time and with the effort it is taking to continue squabbling over this.
The FFRF does not do its cause any good to create these confrontations, but they won't stop. Americans United for Separation of Church and State (an organization that has been around for 61 years) consists of members from all shades of gradation of faith, from militant atheists to fundamentalist ministers and Orthodox rabbis. We all believe that church and state should be kept separate. That separation has resulted in the history of this republic a much freer exercise of religion -- and non-religion -- than you will find in any other nation. Let's keep it that way. "
RTLL wrote on Dec 9, 2008 8:13 PM:
" DW, I've read Farnsworth' spostings twice and don't see anything hateful. Anyhow...Let's face it, as long as the Christian right keeps trying to IMPOSE religious beliefs and values on an entire nation there's gonna be resistance and, unfortunately, it won't always be nice or appropriate. I've lived in a number of different places in the USA where there were plenty of Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. Funny thing...they were always content to enjoy their religion in private and never tried to impose on or convert others. They didn't go door-to-door trying to sell me on their religion and they didn't try to use our legislative branch of government to propagate their religion or values. Bottom line here? Nobody likes to be imposed upon or told how they should live their life. Christians, even though they are in the majority, are no more (or any less) right than any other religion. Christians don't own the USA and the sooner they realize that, the sooner we can have some peace. I, for one, won't be held hostage by another person's religion and I certainly cannot tolerate politics and legislation based on religious precepts. "
kitten wrote on Dec 9, 2008 8:14 PM:
" I'll just live a good life and not worry about any of this nonsense until I die. Why are so many Christians so afraid? Is it because they have created a religion to serve them rather than choosing to serve a higher power? If there is a God, he doesn't need humans to do his judging for him. If there is not, judgemental humans who try to raise themselves above others in His (their) eyes are wasting their time. Any God that matters would say "To each their own as long as they don't interfere with others." "
mad monkeys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:17 PM:
" Because you hear about a few Christians here and there that were out there or whom you were acquainted with does not mean that "ALL CHRISTIANS" are that way. Now I do not recall my pastor giving us any orders to take over the town, the state, the USA, nor the entire World. We don’t plot out which town’s people to judge or even groups to attack. We do not plan out our political agendas so that it is all our way or no way. Besides everyone is entitled to what they believe in. We do not go door to door. I do not recall being in a church where we did go door to door. If something of faith comes up in conversation that is his will. I do not force my beliefs or my bible on anyone. As for the sign, sure they have the right to have their sign up. If each religion is allowed to show their symbol then the atheist should be allowed to show their sign. There are far more important things to do then fuss over signs and symbols. We are not here to judge anyone and by most of these comments I see many of you have judged and made stereo type comments on people who believe in God. Paul Alan a Christian artist said “I am deeply Christian, but I don't speak the language”. "
RTLL wrote on Dec 10, 2008 5:46 AM:
" Monkeys, I hear what you are saying about stereotyping. Unfortunately a group is usually judged by its loudest and most outspoken members. So, while many Christians practice thier religion quietly and privately there is a certain segment who do just the opposite. Wouldn't you agree? In any case, although I stand behind my philosophy on the matter, I plead guilty and apologize for the overly-broad "flourish" of my last remarks. My mother always said "When you paint with a too-wide brush you'll always end up splattering on yourself." She was right, of course. "
South of the river wrote on Dec 10, 2008 12:38 PM:
" Lord save me from thy followers! Personally, I'm celebrating Jimmy Buffets birthday. "
opinionated 1 wrote on Dec 10, 2008 1:12 PM:
" Believe in Harry Potter and thou shalt be saved .... lol . "
iNcHECK wrote on Dec 12, 2008 8:42 AM:
" Please seperate church and state, and remove everything including those laws based on religous beliefs. I am in trouble and need them removed so I can get back on the street. Thanks and Keep it up, you non-religous saps (Science is based on the survival of the fittest). "
Saturos wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:13 PM:
" The holiday "Christmas" is based off a christian belief. It was named that for a reason- it's a christian holiday. No need to bash christians, as your country was FOUNDED by them. People always stereotype my religion off of the people who were jackasses. Can't people ever remember the christians who helped society? Mother Teresa, nearly all of Americas founding fathers... Need I go on? Nobody is perfect. People that only want to celebrate Christmas by gift giving don't celebrate the true meaning of it. I vote we create a new seperate holiday for the saps who can't accept what christmas really is. We can call it Santa day! XD "
opinionated 1 wrote on Dec 13, 2008 2:44 PM:
" Sayuros - I celebrate Christmas by just giving gifts and spending time with my relatives . I'm too old to believe in a story tale . You can believe in the tooth fairy , Jesus , unicorns or gargoyles for all I care . Keep on believing . People used to believe the world was flat too . "
mary wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:31 AM:
" One more time Merry Christmas!Will you print that.Or just hate comments! "
Scot Heisel, TDN wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:14 PM:
" You posted that comment on a different story, Mary, and it was approved. "
shmuck wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:25 PM:
" It was probably an atheist that stole it that didn't read the ten commandments.Do atheists have a book or morals of some kind,or do they make it up as they go along?Book of Bashing the book should be called.Or Disrespect The Rest.Maybe we can change the name of The United States to USAtheists "
RTLL wrote on Dec 15, 2008 7:56 AM:
" Its funny how, century after century, we learn nothing. Hasn't the world had enough of religious turmoil? Good grief. Atheists should leave Christians alone. Christians should leave Muslims alone. Catholics should leave Protestants alone, etc. This is America, the land of freedom. There's room enough for all relgions (or non-religion) if everyone would just get off their high horses. Its terribly wrong to send our young soldiers off to die defending our freedoms if, here at home, we don't embrace and support the very freedoms they have died for! Nothing could be more disrespectful or unpatriotic. Enjoying American freedoms means developing a certain degree of tolerance for each other and, as far as I'm concerned, that's simply a part of being an American citizen. Shmuck, morality and religion and not necessarily tied together by any means. Examples of them being separate are very easy to find. "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:19 AM:
" To the appropriately-named 'shmuck': Are you implying that the only thing that is preventing you from stealing, lying and going on a murderous rampage is the threat from your god that you will go to hell if you do? What does that say about you? And will someone please elaborate on those 'Christian Principles' that govern behavior in this country, to the extent that they differ from the principles that govern any society, anywhere in the world. "
The Zipster wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:21 AM:
" As a Neptune worshipper, I have a nice arrangement with the Christian concept of a supreme being: I don't ask him/her for anything and he/she leaves me alone.
Neptune rules and all other gods bow down before his might. "
Neptune rules and all other gods bow down before his might. "
enlightened wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:25 AM:
" Why do Christians insist that Atheists are evil and without morals? I am not ashamed to claim that I am an atheist. We don't have horns breaking through our skull, or glowing eyes LOL I love humanity, love nature. I give to numerous charities,and raised my child to respect all religions. I absolutely agree with you RTLL religion and morality are not necessarily meshed.Good grief, Hitler was a Christian as was Timothy McVeigh. The Bible is filled with atrocities and stories that are cruel. I respect the Bible stories for what they are, but don't crucify those who believe the stories to be only fiction. Do I celebrate Christmas, only in the mindset it's a time to celebrate family and friends and respect each other. The Atheist sign was a bit over the top with the language, but it was their right to interpret their views. I think it would have been accepted in a better light perhaps if it had just stated the celebration of the Winter Soltice and left at that. "
DW wrote on Dec 15, 2008 12:08 PM:
" Farnsworth, some countries around the world don't have any laws because they don't have a functioning government. Also, many countries around the world that have government don't have a functioning judicial system. And some actions that are punishable by death in some countries aren't even against the law here. So don't go down that road. The best I can say about atheists and agnostics is this, you believe what you want, but don't shove it in my face, and I won't do the same. But remember, atheists and agnostics are a minority. So until we become a completly Godless society your way of thinking on the subject will stay just that, a minority. "
Saturos wrote on Dec 15, 2008 12:45 PM:
" Hitler wasn't christian. He persecuted religious christian leaders. I'm amazed this sparked such a debate. It was disrespectful of athiests to do that and it was rediculous that people got offended by it. Christmas is a christian holiday. Respect each others beliefs and don't openly bash them. If you are christian, you know that athiests will realize how stupid their beliefs are on judgement day. If you are athiest, why are you even associating yourself with religious people? Leave each other alone. Don't force things down each others throats. When athiests posted that sign, they expected opposition. Who wouldn't. Posting that sign in christmas season is like posting a sign that says the holocaust never happened on a jewish holiday. It's downright disrespectful. "
enlightened wrote on Dec 15, 2008 1:18 PM:
" I prefer to think as an individual. It just so happened how I think leans towards atheisism. I don't know of any of my atheist friends who shove their beliefs in anyone's face. Contrary, I have had Christian friends preach to me that I need to be saved. Saved from what LOL????? "
farnsworth68 wrote on Dec 15, 2008 2:19 PM:
" DW, you still haven't answered my question. But perhaps I have been imprecise: No functioning society has ever existed without laws against things like murder, for example, or theft, or perjury, etc. There are of course "non-functioning" societies which have abrogated that social contract, but they are few and far between, and they tend to collapse precisely because they do NOT have that social contract in place. So my question still stands: What exactly are those 'Christian Principles' which exist SOLELY in so-called Christian societies which are substantially different from the principles which guide every functioning society? Short answer: There are none. And even when you look at the Ten Commandments (which, ironically, are part of the Old Testament and presumably are not strictly 'Christian Principles'), how many of those actually made the cut and appear in the laws of the United States? "
enlightened wrote on Dec 15, 2008 6:41 PM:
" Depends on which Historian or author you choose to believe about Hitler.. this,from Wikpedia
According to Albert Speer Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his suicide (unlike other leading Nazis who had formally, publicly and with agitation left the Church)
Point being there are evil and mass murderes who are self proclaimed
Christians.
Geesh Saturos, you comment on not bashing and yet you state how stupid Atheists are come judgement day. First of all, we atheist do not believe in Judgement day LOL,we believe in "Here Today" and enjoying the life we have now =) "
According to Albert Speer Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his suicide (unlike other leading Nazis who had formally, publicly and with agitation left the Church)
Point being there are evil and mass murderes who are self proclaimed
Christians.
Geesh Saturos, you comment on not bashing and yet you state how stupid Atheists are come judgement day. First of all, we atheist do not believe in Judgement day LOL,we believe in "Here Today" and enjoying the life we have now =) "
stink wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:35 PM:
" I don't mind the Merry Christmas stuff.. but when they say "God Bless You".. oh man.... that gets me fired up. "
kityre wrote on Dec 16, 2008 1:02 PM:
" First Atheists did not put up a holiday sign it was an Anti-Holiday sign and as such should not be allowed. If these Atheist are so hard core that they feel the need to put down religion and can’t live and let live those that do have beliefs. They should all refuse to accept paid holidays. That would really show us. They must be so insecure and threatened by religion. What a truly sad people the Atheist that felt the need to put up this sign are. They are resorting to the same tactics they complain about and are pushing their beliefs on others. "
Saturos wrote on Dec 16, 2008 1:11 PM:
" It wasn't a bash enlightened.. You shouldn't take offense if you think the prospect of judgement day is rubbish. I made the comment about judgement day because I know athiests don't believe in it. If judgement day never comes, like you believe, then you will never realize the stupidity of your beliefs. Which would make your beliefs totally logical. And Hitler persecuted all religious leaders. What one historian says doesn't amount to anything when all the historical evidence shows otherwise. What people "believe" doesn't change facts. "Mein Kampf", Hitler's book, professes that the aryan race are decendants of gods.. Does that sound christian? Show me where the bible says anything like that..... Don't get me wrong. There's no denying that christianity has its fair share of corruption. But the corruption comes from the people, not the religion. And stories of corrupt christians are all that people hear about the religion. People rarely hear about the christians who actually do what the bible instructs and use Jesus as an example on how to live their lives. It's sad. It's not the way it was meant to be. And "God bless you" is a blessing.. In no way is it meant to be offensive. If you don't believe in God, don't take is offensively. It's an age old saying. Nobody ever was offended by "God bless you" until this day in age. "
bluE wrote on Dec 16, 2008 5:52 PM:
" FREEDOM FROM RELIGION IS A FREEDOM THAT WOULD BRING TRUE PEACE AND SECURITY. i would love to live in a world free from holy wars and religious whackos. "
enlightened wrote on Dec 16, 2008 8:23 PM:
" Saturos,we should agree to disagree and hopefully leave it at that. I have never said your beliefs are stupid. I am not offended by your comments,but do not shy away from debate. We are all entitled to our opinions. To be honest since we are delving here to express ourselves, I believe Jesus was a admirable man but mortal. I believe much of what he did to spread goodwill was with good intentions. I just don't believe there is a big guy in the sky who fathered him. Taking snipets from each other only scratches the surface to even begin to comprehend another poster's demeanor or attitude here. I have read too much in the Bible that is disturbing and frankly promotes violence. I think this might have been part of what the athiest sign was attempting to reflect although do so in a hasty manner. I would never tell a "believer" that they should do otherwise. Again my beliefs are sound not stupid, and I state this without animosity or offense. You believe in Judgement Day, that is your choice. I believe in living this life loving this earth and doing the best I can.
blueE you and me both. Make Love Not War! "
blueE you and me both. Make Love Not War! "
books wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:19 AM:
" You all may like to look at this article, a few years old, by Ben Stein: http://www.benstein.com/121805xmas.html "
MillCreekMommy wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:53 AM:
" Ugh. First of all to correct whoever said our founding fathers were Christian. *BuZZ* wrong answer, read some history books and not pseudo-science written by the religious. 90% of our founding fathers were Deist. Read founded history and you will see. Deist religion acknowledges a "god-like" figure but takes miracles and intervention out of it. "God" had a plan we are part of it, it goes the way he says, end of story no sentient "guy in a white robe looking in a crystal ball at a human chess game" foo foo. I happen to be Deist myself. The interesting part is that deism doesn't negate other religions or contradict science. *shrugs* Now to the point. This country isn't FOUNDED on any religion, our forefathers wanted all Americans to believe whatever the **** they wanted. Granted taking a whizz on anyone's religion is against my personal belief system, however it is their constitutional right to peaceful assembly and freedom of/from religion. The Atheist can post his rude anti-your-religion stuff and you can stand outside and shake your fist. All of this is A-OK. However it still amuses the crap out of me that Christian and Atheist alike FREAK out and tear down the symbols of Pagan religions hung by the few brave souls crazy enough to take a chance? What is the difference between what invisible guy you believe in? You are none of you following your peaceful religions if you destroy people's display of beliefs. Sound like Jihad? Should. "
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