Story Photos
 The cast of "The Laramie Project" includes, clockwise from left, Dawson Carter, Jamie Hegstad, Phillip Kennedy and Seth McNally. Greg Ebersole / The Daily News
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Opposing demonstrations planned for LCC's 'The Laramie Project'
Monday, December 1, 2008 11:41 PM PST
By Tom Paulu
Printable version
E-mail this articleA handful of people who believe that God hates America, and particularly gays, plan to picket at Lower Columbia College on Friday. A much larger group of counter-pickets will be there, too, with messages of “love and caring.”
Members of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., plan to demonstrate outside the Friday performance of “The Laramie Project” at the college’s Rose Center.
It will be the third and final weekend of performances of “The Laramie Project,” which is about the 1998 murder of gay student Matt Shepard in Laramie, Wyo.
The play, drawn from interviews with actual people involved in the Shepard episode, tells the story of his death, the murder investigation and trials, and the Laramie community’s attitude toward gays.
The Westboro church’s founder, the Rev. Fred Phelps, protested at Shepard’s funeral and is a character in “The Laramie Project.”
Church spokeswoman Shirley Phelps-Roper, who is Fred Phelps’ daughter, said church members travel around the country to picket rather than relying on people in the communities where the picketing takes place.
“We used to travel about once a week in groups of 15 to 20 and more,” she said. But since the church started picketing at U.S. service members’ funerals it’s hard to get many pickets at each site, Phelps-Roper said. The church has about 50 adult members, she said.
“It doesn’t really matter how many of us there are” at demonstrations, Phelps-Roper said. “If there were one of us it would get the exact same carrying on” by opponents, she said.
Mark Bergeson, an LCC instructor who’s organizing the counter-pickets, said he guesses that 75 or 100 people will participate.
Last week, five members of the Westboro church traveled to Silverton, Ore., to protest the recent election of Stu Rasmussen, the nation’s first transgender mayor.
According to an Associated Press story, the protesters arrived with an assortment of signs, such as “God Hates You,” “Fags Are Beasts,” “Your Pastor is a Whore” and “Barack Obama Antichrist.”
More than 100 counter-protesters paraded in the street and some men wore women’s clothing in a show of support for Rasmussen.
Several LCC student groups are organizing the counter-pickets here as a show of support for the college drama department, Bergeson said.
Counter-demonstrators will gather in the Maple Street parking lot at 6 p.m. Friday. People are welcome to bring their own signs with “messages of peace, love and caring, the opposite of hate and hatred,” Bergeson said. “This is not about meeting hate with hate or hating the haters.”
Counter-protesters will be asked to stay away from the Westboro church members, Bergeson said.
Capt. Dan Jacobs of the Longview Police Department said his agency will have “a few extra officers working that day” because of the picketing.
“We expect a peaceful demonstration by both groups,” Jacobs said.
According to the Westboro Web site, picketing is planned at productions of “Laramie Project” around the country.
In the play, Fred Phelps says he believes it’s his job to preach God’s hate. “We love that attribute of God, and we’re going to preach it, because God’s hatred is pure,” Phelps says in the play. “If God doesn’t hate fags, why does he put ‘em in hell?”
Phelps’ daughter, who also protested at Shepard’s funeral in 1998, said she likes the characterization of her father in the play. “As long as they’re faithful to that script, those are good words,” Phelps-Roper said.
Westboro church members have protested a wide variety of organizations and people, including the pope, evangelist Billy Graham and the funeral of Gordon B. Hinkley, the late president of the Mormon Church.
On its Web site, the church claims to have picketed over 34,000 times in the past 17 years, “opposing the fag lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth.”
The church has drawn much of its notoriety for picketing at funerals for American servicemen killed in Iraq, which has led to several states outlawing the activity. Church members say the deaths of service members are God’s punishment for the nation’s acceptance of gays.
Phelps-Roper acknowledged that picketing funerals alienates conservatives who might, like the church, oppose gay rights.
Church members picket funerals “because we don’t serve this county,” Phelps-Roper said. “We serve the living God.”
On the Web:
Westboro Baptist Church: godhatesfags.com
A site opposing Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. http://fredphelps.com/
Local Baptists spreading different message
Though the Westboro Baptist Church preaches about God’s hatred, local church members plan to wave signs proclaiming God’s love around town every day this week.
Mark Schmutz, pastor at Northlake Baptist Church, said ministers decided to wage a campaign stressing God’s love as a response to the announced Westboro picketing.
“We felt to say nothing might be confusing,” considering the Westboro church’s name, Schmutz said. The Westboro church isn’t affiliated with any Baptist organizations.
“The message of Jesus is love,” Schmutz said. “The churches of this city say God loves you.”
Churchgoers with signs plan to station themselves from 3:30 p.m. to dusk Tuesday on the Longview end of the Allen Street bridge; on Wednesday at 15th and Washington Way; Thursday on the Kelso end of the Allen Street Bridge and Friday at 15th and Ocean Beach Highway.
Related article:
Silverton rebuffs protest of mayor-elect (Nov. 25)
LCC's Center Stage Theatre opens with 'The Laramie Project' (Nov. 12)
fringe wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:16 AM:
" Wow, people actually do this... go around spreading a message like this... unbelievable. "
Kelsonian wrote on Dec 2, 2008 5:02 AM:
" I will be opposing Fred Phelp's message of hate in spirit. Wish I could be there to exercise my freedom speech, but alas I cannot. Give Phelps and his hate spewing crew the good fight guys, and thanks! "
reflecting wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:08 AM:
" Well, so much for the low-key approach to publicity. Are the quotes from Phelps' daughter from other sources and prior stories, or was she contacted and interviewed for this one? Seems WBC has jumped all over the stir it's created here and it's really added fuel to their fire, because what started out as a one-hour scheduled picket has now ballooned into three days of hate spew at three of the city's busiest intersections. I was under the impression TDN was going to give them as little press attention as possible, in order to avoid a media circus for these clowns. "
Kalama Dude wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:22 AM:
" As long as these "protesters" are civil and legal, then Freedom of Speech and the right to Assemble over rides any concerns we locals may have. You wouldn't want to squash these peoples constitutional rights would you? Next thing you know you might want to take away their right to own guns as well. Peaceful and civil means this shouldn't be a problem or even a big issue. "
klb65 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:38 AM:
" Thankfully, God in His infinite wisdom, sent Jesus to show that we are not to hate but to love all of his children, regardless of who they are. When all is said and done, God will sort through the crap preached by the Westboro Baptist preacher and his daughter and judge accordingly. Thankfully, we are all equal in the eyes of God and we will be judged not on our differences but by the way we have conducted our lives and shared His love for all people! It is pitiful commentary that a man who is supposed to be a teacher of God's word has simply missed the fundamentals of His teaching...God please save us from bigots like the "reverend"! "
Beer&Skittles wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:24 AM:
" Fred Phelps has surely cinched his reservation in Hades, has he not? What a waste, to focus your entire existence on hatred. Wow. How disappointing. "
Mrs. Pellwerds wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:37 AM:
" Sounds like Mr. Phelps has the same message as the Neo-Nazi Skinheads that rallied last year. I just can't understand why both those groups try to affiliate themselves with Christianity when their views are completely opposite of Christ's teaching. "
Pinky wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:40 AM:
" God said in the bible, that man shall follow god's laws and that his laws are not burdensome. One of God's laws is that man shall love ALL that God has created. While God may be dissappointed in your sexual preference, he still loves us all as we are his children. God even still loves Mr. Phelps even though he is severely dissappointed with his choice to spread this message of hate! God loves us all! "
concerned citizen wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:59 AM:
" Just ignore the poor souls...they are so sadly deceived. They simply hate being ignored, above all else. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:02 AM:
" What happened to love the sinner, but hate the sin? The last article pointed out that the real sin here is dignifying this Fred Phelps position with our attention at all, he and his ilk aren't worthy of any attention from anyone, that's why they create the fuss. That's the problem, this scum just want attention, I wonder if they really believe in anything. "
mole wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:09 AM:
" disapointedinthistown: the best three words ever written on ANY blog.GOD MADE THESE PEOPLE ALSO,THEY WERE BORN GAY!!!! people just don't decide to be gay. just look at the sighns of IGNORANCE,they carry!!! "
Tom Paulu wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:37 AM:
" In response to Reflecting's comments, all the comments by Shirley Phelps-Roper were from a phone interview I did with her.
We decided to do a story because, like it or not, word is spreading around town about the Westboro pickets coming. The LCC drama department, Longview police and others were already well aware of the planned picketing.
However, the Westboro church seems to court publicity -- why else would they take such extreme action?
As for the three days of activity, that's by the local churches with their message of God's love. Westboro will be here only one day. "
We decided to do a story because, like it or not, word is spreading around town about the Westboro pickets coming. The LCC drama department, Longview police and others were already well aware of the planned picketing.
However, the Westboro church seems to court publicity -- why else would they take such extreme action?
As for the three days of activity, that's by the local churches with their message of God's love. Westboro will be here only one day. "
Amyk wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:45 AM:
" I don't think that The Laramie Project is the right way to spread any message--especially if it uses Phelps as a character, I'm assuming as a protagonist (judging by this article, at least). Way to lower yourselves to his standard. "
rastor wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:48 AM:
" How did tolerance disappear from America? My grandparents, my parents, my Sunday School teachers, and my school teachers used to teach "tolerance" of everyone else. They didn't teach "Political Correctness", they taught "TOLERANCE". There is a big difference. You can be polite and tolerant without being rude or ugly. "
Kelso, WA wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:37 AM:
" Re: disappointedinthistown
" God hates Hate. "
God also hates sin. Simple enough. "
" God hates Hate. "
God also hates sin. Simple enough. "
reflecting wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:40 AM:
" Tom -- thank you for addressing my questions. I do understand the need for the story, because it brings it to light rather than people relying on misinformed rumors. I misread the portion about the three day protest; thank goodness we only have to put up with these crazies for one day. I apologize if my comments seem harsh; I am so frustrated with this group and their insistence on bringing their venemous agenda here, when we are trying so hard and making progress as a community to show that we won't tolerate hatred or its advancement here. My sincere thanks to Mark Bergeson and others like him for their deep dedication to peace, love and acceptance. Our city is a better place because of you. "
bones wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:51 AM:
" To KALAMA DUDE AND ANYONE ELSE WHO WOULD EVER SUPPORT THIS WAY OF THOUGHT!!!!.... Freedom of speech is a right and nobody wants to "take it away" BUT we would all hope that people would never be this naive and brainless to think this way much less to picket a play that represents wrongful judgement because of one's sexuality! Not all Chirstians or people of faith think this way..but unfortunatly there are many people that call themselves Christians who are constantly casting judgement onto others for being gay! A true Christian would not do this! "
South of the river wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:51 AM:
" Crazy people. You almost have to admire their dedication: traveling around the country to prove - in person - that they are hate-filled lunatics. Wish I had that kind of time and money, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a better use! "
DD11 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 11:14 AM:
" Frederick Waldron Phelps, Sr. was born on November 13, 1929. He is the pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), an independent Baptist church in Topeka, Kansas. He is a disbarred lawyer and founder of the Phelps Chartered law firm. WBC is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. -the opposition's website (fredphelps.com)
Also, this crazy "church" website is called godhatesfags.com. Anyone who follows this mentally deranged person is truly a messed up individual.
I hope that any demonstrations opposing his message will be peaceful. Let them know that we strongly oppose it but not in a way that makes us look as dumb as he is. "
Also, this crazy "church" website is called godhatesfags.com. Anyone who follows this mentally deranged person is truly a messed up individual.
I hope that any demonstrations opposing his message will be peaceful. Let them know that we strongly oppose it but not in a way that makes us look as dumb as he is. "
Snewey wrote on Dec 2, 2008 11:18 AM:
" The Westboro Baptists of Topeka, Kansas are obviously very disturbed psychiatrically. As with most psychotics, they have little real meaning in their lives.
By the way, why at this time is there no LGBT Services Center in Longview-Kelso providing structured support and encouragement to more than ten percent of our population, especially the youth? "
By the way, why at this time is there no LGBT Services Center in Longview-Kelso providing structured support and encouragement to more than ten percent of our population, especially the youth? "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 2, 2008 11:35 AM:
" The best thing to do is to ignore these people. They are wrong in their approach and their teaching. They don't represent the church as a whole. They are just a few misguided folks who have the right to picket and protest. And Mr. Mole if people are born gay would it not also be true that people are born murderers, rapists, attracted to children, sexually attracted to animals, liars, cheaters and so on? Are you saying we are born without the ability to choose right from wrong? Being born that way is a pretty weak argument. "
julietorell wrote on Dec 2, 2008 11:54 AM:
" Turkeyhunterman: You're right on the mark. People do have a choice, and to suggest that someone is born gay is the same as suggesting they are born with other character maladies. I agree people might have certain tendencies, however, that's where self-control and choosing to do the right thing is important! "
Realist wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:00 PM:
" Turkey- ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? Of course people are BORN gay. Just like I (and I am assuming you) were born straight. Being gay has nothing to do with "right and wrong" NOTHING! There is nothing wrong with being gay. It is the CHURCH that has made people believe it is evil and a "sin." And how can you compare a homosexual to someone who KILLS? Talk about a weak argument.... "
Kalama Dude wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:10 PM:
" Hey Bones no where did I say I supported anything that anyone is protesting about. Where did I and an apology to that affect is appreciated. What I spoke to is that they absolutely have a right to picket and protest, given that this is covered in the same constitution that guarantees you the right to own a gun. IF anyone doesn't like the protesting so be it but you darn well better defend their right to protest, otherwise you better be consistent and expect all your rights under the constitution to be put into jeopardy. Take them all or take none, but be consistent. Thanks "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:18 PM:
" Here's a test for you Realist. Show me one newborn that you can say will be homosexual when they grow up. You can't. That's because sexual tendencies are learned and not born into. Do some reading about people who have left the homosexual life style. Is there anything natural about the act of homosexuality? No. These people can do what ever they want but please don't say that which is wrong is right. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:28 PM:
" The preponderance of scientific eveidence states clearly that sexual predisposition is based on genetic makeup. In fact, in 2007, scientists were able to isolate which portion of the brain controls sexual predisposition. Regardless, I think we can all agree, probably not ok to tie someone to a fence post, beat them nearly to death, and leave them to die in the freezing cold. Just remember when you discuss whether or not homosexuality is a sin, this is a play about a HATE CRIME. "
mole wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:30 PM:
" no turkeyhntrmn: you teach lieing and cheating,but are born with perversions,as child molesting and sex with animals{in my opinion},but lumping murder and rape!!!! in the same category is in FACT your opinion not "MINE"!!!! BEING BORN GAY IS THE TRUTH !!! not saying you can't later in life decide you want to be gay is a differrent thing alltogether !!!! "
mole wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:33 PM:
" TURKEY STOP TYPEING,YOU SOUND VERY UNEDUCATED AND FOOLISH !!!!! "
Duck Fan wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:33 PM:
" To Turkeyhunterman: I am assuming you identify yourself as a heterosexual. If you are in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, can you explain why you are attracted to the opposite sex??? "
padatha wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:42 PM:
" How sickening, horrid, and cowardly of these people to spread their hatred in the name of God. This just makes me shudder.
I hope this lunatic and his followers are somehow stopped before they become a danger to themselves and others, if it isn't already too late. People who are deeply brainwashed into fanatical religious beliefs are not easily reasoned with. They are convinced they are doing God's will, just like suicide bombers are convinced of the same thing. This makes me think of Jonestown and other horrid things done in God's name. "
I hope this lunatic and his followers are somehow stopped before they become a danger to themselves and others, if it isn't already too late. People who are deeply brainwashed into fanatical religious beliefs are not easily reasoned with. They are convinced they are doing God's will, just like suicide bombers are convinced of the same thing. This makes me think of Jonestown and other horrid things done in God's name. "
rosy wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:47 PM:
" Just because you don't want to acknowledge it, don't call something wrong. And please skip the bible quotes. Electricity wasn't mentioned in the bible, and neither were zippers or television. But these things exist and they aren't all bad.
I was born with a 'tendency' to dark brown hair, brown eyes and left handedness. I didn't choose any of these, and you don't challenge any of these. Why would anyone voluntarily sign up for bigotry that gay/lesbians regularly experience? Bad enough that I'm left handed. You wouldn't believe the effects that's had on me.
It's all really the same old story guys. You pays your money and you takes your chances. "
I was born with a 'tendency' to dark brown hair, brown eyes and left handedness. I didn't choose any of these, and you don't challenge any of these. Why would anyone voluntarily sign up for bigotry that gay/lesbians regularly experience? Bad enough that I'm left handed. You wouldn't believe the effects that's had on me.
It's all really the same old story guys. You pays your money and you takes your chances. "
American First wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:53 PM:
" Kalama Dude, Well said on both posts, your dead on right! Some individuals out there would choose to squelch, censor, or suppress these people as they disagree, or find the demonstrators views personally offensive. Either case is irrelevant, all Americans have the right of self expression as long as it's done so peacefully & civilly, rather outside of the norm or not.. I stand with K.D. in the defense of this right.. "
Snewey wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:57 PM:
" It is almost the year 2009. Free public elementary school education has been provided throughout all of the United States since 1870. How is it possible that so many people are so profoundly ignorant and unbelievably misinformed as to homosexuality in this day and age? The scientific research is readily available to everyone. Were it not for the superstitious Christians, the gross misinterpretations of this common variant would not continue. "
Pinky wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:57 PM:
" The bible says that God knew your whole life while you were still in the womb. God knows the choices you will make, whether you feel you were born gay or you feel you chose to be gay are irrelevant. It does also say that man shall not lie with another man, nor woman with another woman for that is a sin against god. The bible also clearly states that he who repents of his sins and accepts Jesus Christ into his heart and his life, shall not perish, but shall be granted eternal life! God also states that we should not dislike the sinner, but should dislike the sin. I challenge someone to find anywhere in the bible where God approves of hate. My references to the bible are not meant to be direct quotes, but I think you guys get the general idea! "
Pinky wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:00 PM:
" By the way the only thing people are born with is the freedom of choice that God has given us. Most of the perverts, rapists, murderes, and molesters all have had some sort of trama done to them that has helped to create the monster they became! "
Realist wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:05 PM:
" Turkey, you are right. I can't show you a NEWBORN baby who will end up to be a homosexual, however, I can show you a child who most likely will be. One of my friends from college is a lesbian. I asked her when she "knew." She said she knew from the time she was about 7 or 8 that she was different. She told me she would watch movies and root for the girl to get the girl and not the guy. How is that learned? She comes from a very religious family in GEORGIA and spent the majority of her growing up years in church. Being gay isn't a choice-- it isn't learned behavior. The only choice is to come out of the closet or stay in--- and why should a gay person have to stay in? Because YOU and your CHURCH is uncomfortable with it? Rosy is right- why would someone ostracize themselves from society and their family like that? "
pilaf wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:09 PM:
" Well, at least this will get some good publicity for the play. "
padatha wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:09 PM:
" when someone quotes the Bible, it would be better if they quote the whole statement, and not single out the part they feel supports their view. Read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians chapter 6. The part that mentions homosexuals also mentions fornicators(that is voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to each other), idolaters, adulterers, prostitutes, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers and robbers! Why single out gays?
The point it is making is that all sin is the same. The word sin means a falling short of being perfect. We are all in the same boat.
I do not adhere to any manmade religion. But for those who do, please quote your own teachings right and accurate and whole and don't use it to back up your hate of others. "
The point it is making is that all sin is the same. The word sin means a falling short of being perfect. We are all in the same boat.
I do not adhere to any manmade religion. But for those who do, please quote your own teachings right and accurate and whole and don't use it to back up your hate of others. "
red3953 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:10 PM:
" Reading these comments, I have to remind myself that everyone does not know/understand. What it's like or how it feels to be a minority, or be Gay.To understand the bigotry. I was born this way, we are born this way. God made us this way. The Westboro group are a hatefull, twisted group of people. They feed off the controvery like a starving shark. This is the same group that shows up at military furnerals & says the person died because America supports Gay Rights! Imagine how a parent/spouse feels when they hear this BS! They have been doing this for years, hiding behind God. And yes Cowlitz1, the play is about a child who was beaten to death, tied to a fence post,left in the freezing cold Wyoming winter. Who was beaten becuase he was Gay. It's a crime overshadowed becuase Matthew was Gay. He was a human being & someones child. "
TheGenius wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:23 PM:
" Does anyone know if this "church" gets tax-exempt status? Seriously, these clowns need to get a life. All they do is go around the country protesting? These ignorant loons need to stay in Kansas. "
padatha wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:39 PM:
" To red3953: I send you a big hug. I know that sounds sappy and hollow, but it is not meant that way.
I was not going to go see the play because it is so sad, and there is enough sadness in life, I don't know more! However, all this controversy has changed me mind. If it isn't sold out, I'm going, if only to show my support of everyone's right to be who they are (short of harming others), as well as LCC's right to put on this play. "
I was not going to go see the play because it is so sad, and there is enough sadness in life, I don't know more! However, all this controversy has changed me mind. If it isn't sold out, I'm going, if only to show my support of everyone's right to be who they are (short of harming others), as well as LCC's right to put on this play. "
red3953 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:58 PM:
" TheGenius, yes they do! Rev. Phelps is worth millions. Supported, tax exempt becuase they are a church. That's why after all the churches you dumped millions into the Yes on 8 campaign in California, there are now questions about tax exempt status & churches that push political agendas. The Mormon church dumped 20 million dollars into that campaign last fall. Think about it, 20 million dollars, save a families home, get a mother & her kids off the street, food for starving families. Pay into a hospital fund for those with no heathcare...I could go on. But they chouse to tell me how to live. "
bucko wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:00 PM:
" Count me as one who will stay away from this play and stay away and ignore this horrible group of protesters. Both sides want to make "statements" and publicity. Think I'll stay home and watch a Redbox movie. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:02 PM:
" Cowlitz, the preponderance of scientific evidence does not conclude such things. Do a little more research and find out who is backing these findings. It's the gay community. Science has not discovered any link to newborns and sexual orientation. The evidence you speak of was "discovered" in practicing homosexuals not newborns. But I agree totally that it is not ok to kill anyone no matter what their sexual or religious beliefs are. "
l-town mom wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:07 PM:
" I am just wondering if the Daily News or anyone else also realizes at the very same time and place that the picketing is supposed to be going on, 18 LCC Nursing Students will be graduating at the Rose Center. As one of the students who has put several years into getting to this point in my life, I am very disappointed that our graduation may be disrupted in any way. I certainly hope it is a peaceful protest/counter-protest. This play is simply saying that hate crimes ARE NOT OKAY!! Who could disagree with that? I am also horrified that anyone who claims to know God would think its okay to spread such hatred. That is just sad and so very far from the truth. "
lovingmom wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:26 PM:
" We are all God's children, regardless if you are white, black, blue, yellow, red, gay, straight, a murder, a thief, or whatever. We have choices in our life, and these people chose to hate one another and openly advertise their feelings... Sad to think they have nothing better to do with their life or time... They could better educate their minds going to school, reading a book, or even get a job and raise their family... but I guess living a happy life is not their style... but who are we to judge? Such a very confused and mis-informed group of people... "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:32 PM:
" Turkeyhunterman: You are correct, the scientific community has not agreed across the board that homosexuality is purely genetic, I should have used the term "largely" to modify my statement. However, there are no serious scientific studies that argue that homosexuality is purely a product of the environment or choice. Every study that I have seen posits that genetic makeup is in fact one of the main contributing factors, although a recent study that pushes a "contiuum" or sliding scale of sexuality does argue that some genetic traits are then influenced by environment. The point is, there are no serious studies that argue for environment or personal choice as the main factor. Additionally, I am slightly skeptical that the entire editorial staff at Scientific American, the Economist and PopSci are being paid off by the gay community, which is where my information comes from. I would be interested if you could direct me to any non-biased study that refutes that information. "
safetygirl wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:49 PM:
" Have these people not read the bible and God's commandments? What happened to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR & JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED! How about Jesus saying "those who are WITHOUT sin, throw the first stone"? I will be there with my sign to spread God's love for everyone. Even these poor ignorant souls that believe that my God can HATE!!! "
reasonable1 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:53 PM:
" turkeyhunterman wrote: " Here's a test for you Realist. Show me one newborn that you can say will be homosexual when they grow up. You can't." Neither can you determine right- or left-handedness, true eye color or a lot of other traits at the time of birth. It's pretty clear to me that you've never known homosexuals (who felt safe enough around you to be known). Gender preference starts to appear as early as age five and is just as "learned" as eye color or hemisphere dominance. "
safetygirl wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:02 PM:
" My son was the victim of a hate crime this past July, 2 surgeries, lots of pain, complete fear, night terrors and a whole lot more later, I would be doing a disservice to my child if I didn't stand up against this hate! By the way, my son is not gay, he was perceived as gay by the assailant. However, I would love him just the same if he was. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:23 PM:
" Cowlitz I can only assume that when you refer to scientific evidence that you are talking at least in part to studies of the hypothalamus or the area of the brain known as INAH3. Initial studies linked the size of that area to homosexuality. Further studies showed that to be false. Also many of the scientists that came to these conclusions were themselves homosexual. Genetic abnormalities happen as a result of a gene being passed from one parent to the fertilized egg. Do we all carry within us a homosexual gene that passes onto our children? If so then the ratio or the probability of passing that gene would remain constant wouldn't it? If that's the case then why has the homosexual population increased so dramatically over the last few decades? I have no hate or desire any ill will toward anyone. I'm just relating the facts as they are. "
TheGenius wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:28 PM:
" This is my problem with organized religion: Rather than sticking with the things they know, like the Bible, they choose to stick their nose into politics and people's lives, without any regard for whether or not people care what their opinion is. And, Crazy Church People, I'll let you in on a little secret: Most Americans do not care for you opinion. Believe what you want to believe. You are completely entitled to be an ignorant meatball. Just stop with the picketing and the puclic appearances. They do nothing, repeat NOTHING, to help further your demented cause. "
justareader wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:32 PM:
" This country was founded on religious freedom. People came here so they could be free to worship their beliefs. Nothing said they had to be right. Just as we have Muslims that interpret the Koran as full of hate, we have Christians who will interpret the bible the same way.
My two favorite thoughts out of the bible are, 1.) Judge not lest ye be judged. 2.) Do unto others as you would have others do to you. Love and peace to all. "
My two favorite thoughts out of the bible are, 1.) Judge not lest ye be judged. 2.) Do unto others as you would have others do to you. Love and peace to all. "
duck fan wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:46 PM:
" turkeyhunterman---"why has the homosexual population increased so dramatically over the last few decades?" ----The homosexual population hasn't increased --- we've just stepped out of the closet more. "
local wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:49 PM:
" turkeyhunterman: Why would someone choose to be gay and have to put up with people like you. Maybe you should take the time to talk to "the gay population" and see what they have to say.....do some real research. "
Realist wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:49 PM:
" Turkey- I do believe there is a gene that we all carry that may or may not be passed on to our children. That is what genetics is. I have NF- my brothers don't have it- no one else in my family has it. But either my mother or my father carry the gene and it landed on me. I didn't choose to have NF- I just do. There is nothing I can do about it. Just like someone being born homosexual- I was born this way.
And to answer your question as to why the population has increased, is VERY simple. Because it has become more accepted. People don't feel like they have to hide who they are anymore. Why should they have to? "
And to answer your question as to why the population has increased, is VERY simple. Because it has become more accepted. People don't feel like they have to hide who they are anymore. Why should they have to? "
red3953 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:49 PM:
" safetygirl, my thoughts & prayers for your son & you. I know what he is going thru. I used the experience to make myself stronger. To me by giving into the fear, they were winning. And in any way am I trying to not valadate what he is going thru. This is how I survived it, he is not alone. Sad to say. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:02 PM:
" THM: I'm sorry neurology is not my strong point, so these viewpoints come from a lay perspective. I was referring to studies that have recently come out of the UofO that show clear links to chemical levels in the brain to sexual preference as well as several articles in SciAm. I believe that the percentage of homosexuals has been holding steady at roughly 11% of the population, though some increase is to be expected as the social mood of the country grows more accepting and decreases the stigma associated with homosexuality. No sense coming out of the closet if you are going to end up like Matt. Furthermore, I don't find it unreasonable to think that a number of us carry recessive genes that could be linked to homosexuality. Mendelian Genetics has proven that carriers of a genetic predisposition do not necessarily manifest every genetic predisposition that they carry (i.e. it is possible for two brown haired people to have a blonde child if they both have a recessive allele associated with that haircolor and it happens to be passed to their child.) "
American First wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:12 PM:
" safetygirl, Great points with the bible, the best one being those with no sin cast the first stone. If only people would apply this to themselves. Unfortunately it's so much easier to be held to a godless standard. Your son's situation is horrifying (if true) and any true god fearing person would not engage in or condone such shameful behavior. I wish your family the very best.... "
DUH wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:18 PM:
" l-town mom, Congratulations to you and the entire class. You've worked hard and you deserve it. Best wishes to you and yours. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:34 PM:
" The gay population has increased not because more people are coming out of the closet. Most of this population is under 30 yrs old. Gays don't pass on genes therefore normal genetic malodies will be passed on at a scientific ratio or possibility. I'm only saying you aren't born that way. You have the right to live any way you want to. I won't stand in your way. I personally have nothing against you or anyone else. Have a happy life. "
El Gabilon wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:48 PM:
" We say again: Ignore this group. If one wants to see the play,go and see it and then leave the area. Freedom of Speech is a right, but SO IS IGNORING WHAT IS SAID OR DONE. This incident is catapalting into a three ring circus and may end up costing the city thousands of dollars when the police get involved. As far as we are concerned God "hating" or "loving" America is a lot of bull. Freedom of religion is also a right, nevertheless, we would like to see it banned for all the misery it causes and has caused in the past. Worship of ones God should be direct and not through any organized religion. But hey: "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" as old S is reputed to have said. In this instance, "turn the other cheek", "walk away from trouble if you can", "don't bring your guns to town son, leave your guns at home" and "don't make a mountain out of a mole hill". "
jamshemil wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:50 PM:
" FOR CRYING OUT LOUD "GOD HATES" I never knew!That's not what I learned in bible class on Sunday. "
transplant wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:55 PM:
" Maybe I missed something here, but what do the counter protest folks hope to accomplish? You're not going to change the minds of people who are clearly unbalanced, you're only going to draw more attention to their cause. I recently visited a Mayan ruins where street vendors had been allowed to move in and sell their junk. High pressure sales tactics. The guide we were with suggested that the best way to elliminate these folks was to simply ignore them and walk away. Seems like the same strategy would work here. I'm sure that with a hundred counter protesters, the media with be there in force. Media attention is exactly what they seek. This group of whackos already admitted that they can't get more than a few folks to any one event. Make them a non-issue. Don't validate their existence. Don't even respond. Am I missing something here? "
duck fan wrote on Dec 2, 2008 5:34 PM:
" To transplant - Here is a quote by Martin Niemoller that explains why it's sometimes necessary to speak up and not just ignore: "First they came for the socialists and I did not speak out, because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a jew. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." "
northender wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:36 PM:
" The next chapter in this process will be the arrest of protesters, and to follow... the law suits ... hope you have monies set aside to fund your mistakes! This group WILL find a reason to sue... the city... the college or individuals. "
Cheney119 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:43 PM:
" Swedish researchers are reporting today that brain patterns in homosexual people resemble those seen in heterosexual members of the opposite sex, a finding that will add to the debate about the origins of homosexuality.
In the new study, to be published later today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, scientists at the Karolinska Institute describe brain scans taken of 90 people, 50 heterosexuals and 40 homosexuals, split evenly by gender.
They found that the brains of homosexual men and heterosexual women were more symmetrical than the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women. So turkeyhunter there is considerable evidence that people are born gay and are psyologically different than heterosexuals. But you know better because you have your feelings and opinions that are pretty much based on nothing. "
In the new study, to be published later today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, scientists at the Karolinska Institute describe brain scans taken of 90 people, 50 heterosexuals and 40 homosexuals, split evenly by gender.
They found that the brains of homosexual men and heterosexual women were more symmetrical than the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women. So turkeyhunter there is considerable evidence that people are born gay and are psyologically different than heterosexuals. But you know better because you have your feelings and opinions that are pretty much based on nothing. "
Cheney119 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:46 PM:
" Who cares what it says in the bible? I suppose christians do, but even christians pick and choose what to believe in the bible. Eating shellfish is an abomination. The bible instructs to be kind to your slaves, do you christians have slaves? Does this mean the bible is endorsing slavery? The bible says a lot of things but they don't pertain to anyone but christians. I don't care what it says in the bible about being gay, and I'd bet gay people don't either. "
longview gal wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:07 PM:
" These are the sewer rats who follow the soldiers funerals who came back from Irag, just to taunt their families with their despicable signs of hatred.
Remember the tragedy of the Amish girls being shot down in cold blood by a madman who broke into their schoolhouse?
These so-called "Christians" were there at their funerals also, mocking and taunting the families of the deceased children. One of their signs said "Your daughter was a slut." The girls were from 6 to 13 yrs old!
I hope there's a special place in hell for these ..... what? I can't call them people. They're not human - they don't have a conscience. "
Remember the tragedy of the Amish girls being shot down in cold blood by a madman who broke into their schoolhouse?
These so-called "Christians" were there at their funerals also, mocking and taunting the families of the deceased children. One of their signs said "Your daughter was a slut." The girls were from 6 to 13 yrs old!
I hope there's a special place in hell for these ..... what? I can't call them people. They're not human - they don't have a conscience. "
rnl0192 wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:33 PM:
" I understand that people have a right to their own opinions and beliefs, but just because you're spreading what YOU might think to be God's message, does not constitute you calling people fags.
The fact that WBC is doing such a thing disgusts me. It doesn't show their loyalty to God, it shows that their ignorant,uneducated, crude.
If God hates homosexuals, then let them live in their own sin. It is none of our buisness to try and keep them from what makes them happy.
Though we are born in America with the right to protest and have our voices heard, we are born into this world, with the right to pursue happiness. Just let people do what they want to do. It's their life, let them live it how they wish. "
The fact that WBC is doing such a thing disgusts me. It doesn't show their loyalty to God, it shows that their ignorant,uneducated, crude.
If God hates homosexuals, then let them live in their own sin. It is none of our buisness to try and keep them from what makes them happy.
Though we are born in America with the right to protest and have our voices heard, we are born into this world, with the right to pursue happiness. Just let people do what they want to do. It's their life, let them live it how they wish. "
Ann Onamous wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:30 PM:
" I have several questions. First of all, Turkeyhunterman, how do you know that many of the scientists researching the origin of sexual orientation "are themselves homosexual"?? I don't recall ever reading any sort of scientific literature that included sexual orientation as part of the author's credentials.I'm just sayin' your argument about the whole issue seems a little weak in more than one aspect. Second question, to anyone who might know, where is this hate group (I can't bring myself to refer to them as a church) getting their bankroll? It's got to take some serious money for them to be spreading their venom far & wide.
Finally, not a question, just a word of thanks for Duck Fan who posted that wonderful quote about the importance of speaking out about that which is wrong!!! "
Finally, not a question, just a word of thanks for Duck Fan who posted that wonderful quote about the importance of speaking out about that which is wrong!!! "
actor_girl wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:19 PM:
" Thanks to those of you who are showing support for this event. The way to beat them is with peace. I'm a part of the show and one thing to remember is that this show is about a number of things. They didn't write Fred Phelps in to support him but for a different reason. Anyway, I hope to see all of you at the counter protest! Bring peace and love! :)...P.S. Homosexuality is not learned or a choice. People ARE born that way. Read a pyschology book and it will tell you so. I don't want any controversy over this because it's a fact. P.S.S. I love people for who they are, not their gender. Peace! "
actor_girl wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:36 PM:
" Also, to the people who are attending the counter protest: don't respond or try to yell at the protestors. They will sue you for harassment and if they don't win the case they will keep suing you until you give up and say "Well, what can I do to make you stop?" And they say "A contribution to the church will do." And that's how they black mail people, which might be where they get their money. The best thing to do is not respond or react to them at all. Just promote peace. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 3, 2008 2:56 AM:
" Ann- One good example of scientists being homosexual is Dr. Simon LeVay who was a neuroscientist at the Salk Institute of La Jolla, California. The bias in his findings were questioned and found inaccurate by other scientists. Although the size of the hypothalamus was different in some of the samples he tested the results were unvarifiable and not repeatable therefore not scientific. Research has been varified that behavior changes the way the brain functions and alters the various areas as a result. This includes the size of different areas of the brain. Cheney, I read the report that you mentioned. No mention of conclusions based on their findings. Show some case studies were these type of finding were evident in newborns and how they turned out. That'll keep you busy. And stop quoting the bible. You have no idea what you're talking about. "
stink wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:03 AM:
" Have fun protesting! I will be with El Gabilon with my head in the sand. "
mad monkeys wrote on Dec 3, 2008 10:08 AM:
" It is sad to see everyone playing in to the hatred; like Freddy and his daughter want people too. This is exactly what feeds their vendettas. In order to show we are a community, and by that I mean we support the Thespians and their Plays, even the soldiers, and Veterans in our area we need to not feed into their ugly teeth gnashing disgusting hate. Yeah many of us have family or our selves who fathers, brothers, uncles, and so on who fought for their rights for said groups to protest in this country. Yes even when they behave in a disrespectful and belligerent manner however, it is our right as well to counter those distasteful protests if we choose to. It is our right to stand up for those being bullied. For those who choose not to be part of it there is also the tree lighting ceremony in Kelso will remind you that we are a community. As for the debate on ones sexual preference, I think it is getting out of hand on the blogging here. The article is just stating where this group stands and how hateful they are on everything. I am aware that there are many who have family, friends or who are homosexual but we need not to be attacking everyone one that is not what this article is about. The article is showing how hateful this group is and that majority of our community is speaking out against them. "
cheney119 wrote on Dec 3, 2008 10:38 AM:
" Turkey are you assigning homework? I don't think so! There is a debate; nature or nurture on many topics, the fact you are so damn sure proves your intellectual fraility. A christian's opinion about the bible is completely meaningless, you just pretend to know what you're talking about, only you lost any objectivity when you say it's your faith; ie backed by nothing. The bible is full of stuff you don't follow even though it's "god's word". Paying interest is another abomination that you do every month on your credit card. Your religion doesn't hold up to any scrutiny and doesn't belong an this debate or any other in the United States of American. Your faith doesn't matter. "
US CITIZEN wrote on Dec 3, 2008 1:42 PM:
" being homosexual is against nature. if you are religious it is offensive.it should be kept it in the closet with the other fetishes people have that are not normal! "
Leslie Slape wrote on Dec 3, 2008 2:08 PM:
" To Amyk: Phelps is not the protagonist in this play. He's a minor antagonist. "
mole wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:04 PM:
" TURKEYHUNTERMAN: Are you a turkey hunter or a "GENETICIST" ?? I have to laugh at all the scientific,facts that have been quoted !! If you are gay/lesbian, who cares !!!! they are HUMANS just like you. As long as these type of [KKK,ARIAN B.S.] groups, stop getting publicity,the RATS will go back to the garbage they crawled out of !!! I am educated enough,not to be afraid of somebody's likes or dislikes!!as long as it doesnot step on my toes !!! "
mole wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:21 PM:
" hey trkyhntrmn: I just read an article ,about four brothers,and the only one who liked women was thier SISTER !!!! "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Dec 3, 2008 11:08 PM:
" Hey mole, I guess the gene pool in that family will end soon. I totally expect some people to laugh at facts and scream how much they don't care. That only confirms to me that I'm right. Do you hate these people who are picketing or just what they stand for? They too are Humans. Personally I abhor their teachings and conduct but choose to ignore them. They thrive on engagement. Don't feed them what they thrive on and they'll look elsewhere for food. And no I'm not a geneticist but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express. "
mole wrote on Dec 4, 2008 9:57 AM:
" THAT FAMILIES GENE POOL,IS A WADEING POOL !!! there is allways,some people who percieve these protestors,as freedom of speech.I consider these protesters as, a cancer on the HUMAN RACE!!! protest against some thing you have control over . SEXUAL PREFERENCES,ALONG AS CONSENTING ADULTS,PARTAKE IN THAT PREFERENCE,IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER HOMES!!!! "IS" FINE BY ME!!! TURKEYHUNTERMAN: GREAT REPLY,THOSE BEDS "ARE" FULL OF INFO !!!! "
Scarlet wrote on Dec 4, 2008 10:23 PM:
" I am a strong Christian, and I believe in gay rights. As a matter of fact, I really don't see a reason for them to not be treated with the same respect as everyone else. God loves. It's even mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (for those who don't know the Catechism features the views of the Church, derived from the bible, Mass, and other traditions) that although the act of homosexuality is a sin, the people who engage in it "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided" (2358).
And while it does go on to say that they are invited to practice chastity as Christians, it would be wise to note how not all homosexual people are practicing Christians. Who am I to tell them what to do?
As for whether it's aquired or already there, I will tell you of an event that occured a couple summers ago. I am a straight female, and one day I suddenly discovered that I liked a good guy friend of mine. I really didn't want to though, and tried to forget about it for a while. Finally I gave in, and the time we've spent together has been the best of my life. From this experience I've learned that one really can't help who they love.And I don't think that gay people are any exception. I wonder if anyone else, gay or straight, can attest to this. "
And while it does go on to say that they are invited to practice chastity as Christians, it would be wise to note how not all homosexual people are practicing Christians. Who am I to tell them what to do?
As for whether it's aquired or already there, I will tell you of an event that occured a couple summers ago. I am a straight female, and one day I suddenly discovered that I liked a good guy friend of mine. I really didn't want to though, and tried to forget about it for a while. Finally I gave in, and the time we've spent together has been the best of my life. From this experience I've learned that one really can't help who they love.And I don't think that gay people are any exception. I wonder if anyone else, gay or straight, can attest to this. "
PAKennedy wrote on Dec 7, 2008 2:26 PM:
" I've been following this debate since the article came out yesterday... and I have to say that I am very disheartened at the biggoted comments on here.
I was the openly gay man that was interviewed ont he article... and I just want to clarify something. The march was to celebrate diversity... it would've happened even if it were a soldiers funeral these people were picketing, or an african american who was being persecuted.
I find people's lack of tolerance antichristian. WWJD? He wouldn't speak harshly and ignorantly without any thought. Remember he was the one who accepted tax collectors and prostitutes... helped them come around to God by kindness.
To those on here who have shown their ignornace, intolerance and hate: You're no better than Fred Phelps and his brood... and probably just as inbred. I'm proud to say I am gay... I look at myself as population control. Most of humanity have become a malignancy on the face of the earth. And most of you have proven this point by saying what you have.
To those who have been tolerant and who have made educated comments: Thank you. "
I was the openly gay man that was interviewed ont he article... and I just want to clarify something. The march was to celebrate diversity... it would've happened even if it were a soldiers funeral these people were picketing, or an african american who was being persecuted.
I find people's lack of tolerance antichristian. WWJD? He wouldn't speak harshly and ignorantly without any thought. Remember he was the one who accepted tax collectors and prostitutes... helped them come around to God by kindness.
To those on here who have shown their ignornace, intolerance and hate: You're no better than Fred Phelps and his brood... and probably just as inbred. I'm proud to say I am gay... I look at myself as population control. Most of humanity have become a malignancy on the face of the earth. And most of you have proven this point by saying what you have.
To those who have been tolerant and who have made educated comments: Thank you. "
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