LCC may have to start turning away qualified students
Monday, November 24, 2008 5:20 PM PST
By Greg Garrison
Printable version
E-mail this articleShari Chagnon is worried qualified students may soon be turned away from Lower Columbia College.
“It’s kind of a scary experience leaving high school so they put it off and put it off,” the Mark Morris High School guidance counselor said last week. “(In the past) even if you walked in late, LCC was always there. Now, it’ll be really competitive.”
As LCC and other state colleges begin searching for ways to cut as much as 20 percent from their upcoming two-year budgets, high school advisers and economic leaders ponder the possible ramifications of those cuts.
While exact cuts have yet to be determined, it appears LCC’s doors may not be open to all eligible students much longer.
“We haven’t ever had to turn students away,” said Sue Groth, LCC’s director of college relations and marketing.
But Groth and others recognize it will be difficult to continue that open admissions policy.
Charlie Earl, the executive director of the state Board for Community and Technical Colleges, told The Associated Press that community colleges would be forced to cut at least 6,000 full-time students statewide.
The state board is polling each college, trying to determine which schools and which programs can absorb cuts with the least amount of impact on students.
Meanwhile, counselors are stressing to future high school graduates the importance of planning ahead for higher education.
“We’ve been telling students it’s getting more critical to apply earlier,” R.A. Long guidance counselor Katrina Miniutti said. “The last few years we’ve been sending that message more strongly.”
Specific cuts won’t be announced until June, when LCC’s new budget is approved, Groth said.
“It’s really all speculation at this point in time for everyone,” she said.
Community college officials argue they can help the economy rebound by providing training for “middle-skilled” employment — jobs that require more than a high school diploma but less than a bachelor’s degree. Eighty percent of Washington’s “middle-skilled” job training takes place at community and technical colleges.
Laid-off workers often turn to those programs to transition into a new field.
“To limit those opportunities is going hurt families in Cowlitz County,” said Ted Sprague, president of the Cowlitz Economic Development Council.
Chagnon, the Mark Morris guidance counselor, said she is worried about the long-term effect the cuts will have.
“I just thought what are we going to do? Jobs are asking for more and more technical skills,” she said. “I guess it was kind of a shock to me although I know how the economy is. The worse the economy is, the more skills we need.”
Related article:
LCC facing some tough budget decisions (Nov. 20)
Truthiness wrote on Nov 24, 2008 9:15 AM:
" Didn't I just see a story last week about how LCC was having to close down programs because of a budget shortfall? This article makes it sound like business is good... I guess this means you don't qualify for any handout. "
Ella Mentry wrote on Nov 24, 2008 9:58 AM:
" They are only *pondering* POSSIBLE ramifications. Almost every single business is doing the same thing in this tough economy. I wouldn't get your knickers in a knot until the decisions are made. "
Roudyruss wrote on Nov 24, 2008 10:10 AM:
" Like stated in the last artical, the first that needs to be cut is running start. The high school students who are in it don't pay tuition. Also, in my opinion, someone who has put in the work to get a diploma should have priority over someone who is trying to take a "short cut". "
SM wrote on Nov 24, 2008 10:26 AM:
" Companies locate in the US instead of 3rd world countries because we are more educated. If we let our competitors catch up to us, the economy will get much, much worse. "
American First wrote on Nov 24, 2008 10:35 AM:
" How can students or people be turned away from education? I wonder what our pro-education Governor is doing about it? "
chickmunk wrote on Nov 24, 2008 11:04 AM:
" Unlike private schools, enrolling more students at a state-supported public college does NOT equal higher revenue. Community college tuition/fees paid by students (about $2,200 full-time) cover only about a third of the $7,000 actual educational cost per student. State support provides the remaining $4,800. The state also sets an FTE goal (limit) for each college. Colleges are not reimbursed for students enrolled beyond that limit, so for each student over their budgeted number, colleges have to eat the unreimbursed $4,800. "
dogshead wrote on Nov 24, 2008 11:05 AM:
" Truthiness- All public education is at least partially funded by the State. I believe student's tuition covers only 1/3rd of the cost of their education. With fewer State funds available, there will be fewer programs and fewer students allowed to enroll. We are entering very tough times. "
hopingforacostco wrote on Nov 24, 2008 11:26 AM:
" Roudyruss~ The high school student may not have to pay for tuition but their tuition is paid for by the state. Instead of the state giving money to the student's high school, they give it to the college instead. The students still have to buy books and I don't believe they get financial assistance in doing that. These students have to take an entrance exam and have to maintain a good grade point average to stay in running start. I would say these kids are working just as hard if not harder to earn their diplomas. Were you meaning to say that the people who earned their GED were somehow superior than the running start students? I don't think anyone should be superior to anyone else, running start students included. If the main issue is not getting paid fully, than the only people who should be attending LCC are the people who are paying full tuition out of their pockets! "
Roudyruss wrote on Nov 24, 2008 11:59 AM:
" hopingforacostco where did you come up with GED? People who get GED's are lesser than in my eyes. In my opinion, people who COMPLETE high school put in alot more work than a running start student. I completed a degree at LCC after getting a high school diploma and LCC is easy compared to high school. Running start kids get double credit for single courses, getting college and high school credits at same time is only doing half the work. "
sentinel wrote on Nov 24, 2008 12:04 PM:
" The biggest problem with Running Start is that it puts the high school students at the head of the line when it comes to class enrollement. Regular students are first come first served but Running Start gets priority. "
Grateful wrote on Nov 24, 2008 12:27 PM:
" Educating anyone who wants to be educated MUST be the state's priority. Governor Gregoire needs to find somewhere else to cut - not community colleges. For cuts that must occur at the community colleges, consider the WSU President's actions. Paycuts for the top earners, fewer "assistants" for the top earners. Protect students. Isn't educating students the only reason the community college even exists? Take the students out of the equation and you don't have a college and therefore no jobs. Time to re-prioritize. "
hopingforacostco wrote on Nov 24, 2008 1:20 PM:
" Roudyruss~ I guess that is where we disagree, but everyone has their own opinion and that is what is great about these blogs. But remember, this isn't about you. YOU may have thought that LCC was easier than high school but not everyone feels that way. If that was the case, why go to college at all if you already know what you need to know from highschool. You probably had really good teachers in high school that prepared you for college so it seemed easy, not everyone is that lucky. I also have a college degree and I worked hard in college, but I received great grades in high school as well but that was for the same reason, I worked hard. My whole point was no matter what the age, people shouldn't be turned away from wanting to further their education. It doesn't matter if they are in high school or they need financial assistance to attend college. No one is superior over someone else! "
my2cents wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:03 PM:
" All things being equal, I agree that Running Start should be discontinued for the time being. It is a great program when there is room in the classes. The high school students already have curriculum set up for them - even have Advanced Placement classes available (they can earn college credit for classes taken in high school). Why turn away otherwise qualified students so that these kids can take the spots? Let the high school kids go to high school and adults attend the college if there are issues with enrollment opportunity - regardless of who is paying the tuition. "
DEH wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:26 PM:
" I agree with Roudyruss about Running Start. I have always wondered why a student could skip his/her last two years of high school and get rewarded for it with free college credit. Are those last two years really that useless to students? If so, why do we have them? Perhaps some high school students are just ready for more challenging course work. That's what AP classes are for. Running Start is no longer for the elite; I don't know anyone personally who has tested for Running Start who hasn't been admitted to the program since they made the requirements to get in easier. If you can read, write, and do basic math, you can get into Running Start. My basic problem with this situation, however, is that we are to the point where discussions are happening to address whether or not LCC should turn students away. I believe that if they decide open enrollment is no longer feasible (I hope they don't), they need to start by cutting the students with the fewest qualifications, starting with those who have not even graduated from high school yet. Yes, they may be smart and they may be hard workers...but then again, they may just be good at taking tests. Let them prove that they are ready to excel in college by doing what high school students have done for decades: by finishing high school first. Then they can compete for the seats at LCC with the other high school graduates. "
rastor wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:38 PM:
" Running Start also hurts the local high school, even though it is great for those kids who are "educationally inclined" to actually succeed. The school still has to provide any sporting activity for them, still has to "monitor" their progress, and maybe provide one class per quarter for them (many don't attend High School Classes at all). All the while the College gets the State funding for that education. "
skeezix wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:39 PM:
" Roudyruss, A person with a GED is a lesser individual? Nice try. I had a college professor at Portland State who obtained his GED because high school was not challenging enough for him. He went for the GED instead and then on to an undergraduate degree from Reed College which has one of the most rigorous academic programs for undergrads around. He then went on to earn M.S. and Ph.D.'s from UW. There are some extremely bright people out there with GED's for a number of reasons. "
SM wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:58 PM:
" While running start may reduce the numbers in high schools, it's definitely a waste of tax-payer money to send kids to a school where they'll hardly learn when that same money could send them somewhere that challenges them. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 4:02 PM:
" I think it is phenomenal how little credit Running Start gets. Mark Morris has recently discontinued its debate team, which despite being massively underfunded had managed to make it to state and compete against far larger schools that actually care about academics. Knowledge bowl is a joke, and I can't really think of any other programs that allow our local students to excel ACADEMICALLY. Now, we should cut Running Start, which has allowed students from Longview to compete for full-ride scholarships to large universities, and allow them to sink in to the abyss that is Longview's educational priorities. I guess you should expand the technical programs, because that is the only place our students can go. Great idea, let's hammer in that message about how little we care about real academics in this community, maybe we can give a little more funding to our football teams, while we are at it. Social ills are not solved by ignoring problems and the level that most of our students are leaving the educational system is deplorable. Many of our social ills, see meth, etc. have to do with basic education, and discontinuing one of the few resources available to diligent students is ridiculously shortsighted and dangerous. "
El Gabilon wrote on Nov 24, 2008 4:32 PM:
" Cut salaries of all employees to 10% above minimum wage. This incudes "professors". Ninty percent of college classes can be taught by television. "
autumnie wrote on Nov 24, 2008 4:56 PM:
" Putting more money into the football and basketball programs is a grand idea. Except I know 2 kids that I graduated Mark Morris with-that went to TINY private schools on sports scholarships-and ended up going nowhere with them after college, as opposed to SEVERAL kids that went onto college because of ACADEMIC scholarships-who now have gone onto successful careers or graduate programs. Many of them benefited from running start. I'm convinced Longview's reverting into a town full of cavemen. Things would have to change dramatically for me to send MY children to Longview schools at this point. Which is a tragedy. "
Cowlitz1 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 5:31 PM:
" As a graduate student that has taught freshmen undergraduates for two years, I will tell you that "ninty" percent of all classes can not be taught by "television". It is no accident that when Time Magazine publishes its guidebook to the top colleges in the nation that teacher student ratio is one of the factors that they focus on. There is no substitute for one on one attention, the proof of this statement is borne out in endless classroom studies. I think it is awesome that El Gabilon thinks we should cut the salaries of those individuals entrusted with the education of our youth to 10% above minimum wage. To put that into perspective, that would mean that the tenured professors at LCC would have spent on average 10 years of post high-school education (probably accruing in excess of $40,000 in debt)in order to get the same wages as a guy flipping hamburgers at McDonald's (no disrespect). This at the same time that Longview is bleeding industrial and tech jobs, and creating more of a need for liberal arts, hard sciences and business oriented education than ever before. I urge you all to think before we become a bedroom community totally dependent on exterior industry and exterior talent to fuel the continuing existence of our burg. Education is a powerful tool to change futures, both individually and collectively. "
Viewpoint wrote on Nov 24, 2008 6:45 PM:
" Running Start is expendable. High school AP classes have been suffering for lack of students because those kids have been enrolling in Running Start. I find it hard to believe there are very many students in our area who would not be challenged enough by several AP courses and probably music, sports, and other hobbies. If they are that industrious they can graduate early and then enroll in college. A few hours a week of boredom wouldn't kill them either but most bright kids can usually find something interesting to do. A parent who thinks their brilliant darling isn't challenged enough should talk to the teachers and principal. "
homesweet wrote on Nov 24, 2008 7:39 PM:
" Roudyruss- these "running start" kids have college classes completed and often a degreee before the same kids have a diploma! So they should wait until high schools over to go to college? Why would anyone not want a "running start" at an education? Especially if its FREE!!! "
UW Squirrels wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:11 PM:
" El Gabilon, your comment that 90% of college classes can be taught by television shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. One of the most important factors in how much you learn in a class is who the instructor is. And even in a 700+ person lecture class, the instructor and the interaction the students get with the instructor makes a huge difference. If instructor pay was reduced like you're talking about, it would truly mean the end of education in America. "
mom of four wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:38 PM:
" ROUDYRUSS~ I have my GED and guess what I am also going for my college degree. You are so rude to say that people with a GED aren't as good of a person then someone with a HSD. Sure I would have like to get mine but I didn't I got the next best thing. Not every family is as caring, loving and supportive as your family apparently was. Too bad they raised a insenstive, bully, rude, desrespectful man. Learn common sence that not everyone in this community is as great as you, but they are still people. That is like saying I have more income then you, but still doesn't mean that I think you are any less then I am. I hate the fact that people still think they are better then another. We may have diffrent views but nobody will be better then I. We are all equal. It is up to you to feel diffrently. "
just living wrote on Nov 24, 2008 9:06 PM:
" Running Start is a good program, however we are having people who have been working for many years at the mills who are getting laid off. These people generally started right out of high school and now has to find another career. If Fibre continues their layoffs, and what if Weyco and Norpac follow - then where would our community be? I believe we need to use the enrollment for adults who now have to change careers instead of running start kids. I know there are alot of other people getting their degrees to better themselves and possibly make more money - which is the point, adults have financial responsibilities more so than high school kids. Most if not all kids still live at home, while adults have to provide for themselves and possibly a family. If we are having to cut enrollment, it should be the running start program regardless of who is paying the tuition. "
DestinyN wrote on Nov 24, 2008 11:45 PM:
" So how am I going to ever get my degree? Was planning on starting school in the Spring... if I'm turned away I guess I'll never be any better than I am now. Looks like the minimum-wage retail jobs will have to pay my bills while I feed myself with food stamps for the rest of my life. What a devastating story. "
who am I? wrote on Nov 25, 2008 7:32 AM:
" I agree with those that say to cut running start. I know it's a good program for some kids and I hope they can find a way to not have to limit those that enroll, BUT if they do have to limit the high school kids DO have an other option to get at least a few credits through AP classes at the high school. save the spots for those that already have their diploma or GED and for the adults that are having to retrain because of a lost job. again, I hope they can find a way to keep the running start program AND allow as many adults into the school as want but if they can't I do think the right thing is to drop the running start until finances can handle all the enrollees again. "
Roudyruss wrote on Nov 25, 2008 7:58 AM:
" Just for the record. I was not raised in a loving, caring, home with parents that had lots of money. I do not think I am better than anyone. I was not a straight A student in high school. I actually barely made it in high school but the fact remains that I DID THE WORK and got my diploma. I recieved my Ass. degree at 30 years old. IMO Someone who quits school and takes a test for a few hours rather than show up daily and does the work for four years has not put in the same effort as someone who has a diploma. "
Ms. Z wrote on Nov 25, 2008 9:09 AM:
" Roudyruss, how dare you imply that someone who shows up to highschool and performs the bare minimum and squeeks by with a regular highschool diploma is the better person. I was on my own at 16 due to circumstances beyond my control, I worked a full time job, got my GED, complete college (four year degree which took six years while working)and you think you are better then me? You feel you put in more work? Might want to find a cushion because that pedestal you have placed yourself on is looking a little creaky. "
ccd wrote on Nov 25, 2008 12:44 PM:
" ROUDYRUSS, you may have earned an education, but you get an F when it comes to having any class. People who earn GEDs are not inferior or lesser in any way. What an ugly generalization you make - people who earn a GED vs a Diploma don't work as hard? You have zero evidence or facts to support that snottly belief of yours. I came from a terrible home, drugs and abuse, and I left highschool during my senior year so I could escape and join the military. I signed a contract, and immediately earned my GED, then went on to college, all while in the military. So don't you tell me that I didn't work as hard as you for an education, as have millions of others who have served in the military while pursuing higher education. Yes, you may have obtained an education, but your statement was downright ignorant. Btw, congratulations on pursuing higher ed., but if it took you until age 30 to achieve an Associates Degree, then you weren't exactly blazing any trails yourself. "
sentinel wrote on Nov 25, 2008 5:52 PM:
" To homesweet: Running Start isn't free and that's the whole point. This is about prioritization now. Running Start students have other options and bright students are not going to have their educations short changed, but the adult students who are turned away from LCC definitely will. "
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