Story Photos
 Melanie Brown says her dog, Odessa, qualifies as a service animal. The pair were barred from entering the Cowlitz County Hall of Justice in July. Greg Ebersole / The Daily News
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Two women take on county over service animal policies
Tuesday, September 2, 2008 4:32 PM PDT
By Tony Lystra
Printable version
E-mail this articleMelanie Brown says she doesn't know what she'd do without Odessa, her big moose of a dog. Brown, who suffers from severe back problems, says the bouvier-chow mix helps her stand up, pulls her along, even anchors her from behind with its leash as she descends flights of stairs.
"She's amazing," Brown said. "She senses how much help I need and does it."
Brown insists Odessa is a service animal, which means she can bring the dog into any public building. But, she said, Cowlitz County officials kicked her out of the Hall of Justice in July, claiming Odessa doesn't really assist her with her disability.
The 60-year-old Ryderwood resident said she had to abandon a lawsuit she'd filed against a homeowners' association because she and Odessa weren't allowed into the courtroom.
She has since filed a claim for nearly $730,000 against the county over the incident.
Brown isn't alone. Dawn Moran, 49, of Longview said she and her service dog, a chocolate Lab named Hoss, were barred from this summer's Cowlitz County Fair. Moran, who also suffers from severe back pain, said a reserve sheriff's deputy demanded that she demonstrate exactly how Hoss helps her. When she dropped her wallet and Hoss scooped it up, she said, the deputy scoffed: "Ha, my dog can do that."
"I was in tears," Moran said.
The cases have raised a difficult question for the county, which is trying to keep unruly animals out of its buildings while still complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Both Brown and Moran claim county employees asked specifically about their disabilities, which is forbidden by the ADA.
And Moran said one of the county employees who confronted her at the fair wanted to see documentation proving her Lab is a service dog, also an ADA violation.
If the county's workers are that confused about the law, she said, disabled people could be blocked from accessing the most basic government services.
"I guess that's the part that kind of bothers me the most," she said.
The women began lobbying the commissioners late last month to reverse a new county code, which was implemented just before the episodes and is aimed at discerning real service animals from pets.
"What happened to me is just the beginning of a countywide pattern that's developing based on this new policy," Brown said.
In response to the complaints, the county has said it will alter its policies. It also said last week that its new rules were poorly implemented and that employees weren't properly trained to follow them.
Commissioner George Raiter said the policy stems largely from a series of bizarre events at the Hall of Justice.
One woman brought a monkey into the building, he said. The animal, which the woman called her "comfort monkey," ran loose in the lobby. Someone else brought a snake. Another showed up with a bird.
Officials, he said, clearly needed a mechanism for excluding "animals that are inappropriate."
Superior Court Judge Stephen Warning said Friday that Odessa, Brown's shaggy dog, is a classic example of why the new policy is necessary.
Warning, who had been hearing Brown's case against the homeowners' association, pointed out that the Americans with Disabilities Act allows businesses to remove service animals that are disruptive.
"I was told by security that her dog smelled so bad that people were having to get up and leave the courtroom," Warning said.
When he asked Brown what service the dog performs, he said, the situation became "laughable."
"She said, 'Well, she pulls me.' ... As she's facing me, the dog's trying to pull her in another direction. It was clear the dog was not trained to assist her in any way."
Warning said he of all people would be especially forgiving of a service animal in his court. He and his wife have trained three seeing-eye dogs, one of which was sleeping at his feet when the incident unfolded.
"I'm probably going to be as liberal as anybody on these things," he said. "But there's a line somewhere."
The federal government's ADA guidelines say animals that pick things up, like Moran's Lab, or help with "mobility impairments," like Brown's dog, qualify as service animals.
In addition, a memo on the law from the U.S. Justice Department says a business "may ask if an animal is a service animal or ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform, but cannot require special ID cards for the animal or ask about the person's disability."
The ADA also says that businesses cannot require anyone to show documentation proving the animal performs a service.
Sunnie Smith, who has helped teach classes about service animals for Disability Resources of Southwest Washington, said the county was "absolutely wrong" in the cases of both Brown and Moran.
"There's no doubt about it -- they have broken a federal law," said Smith, who lives in Castle Rock.
The county's new policy, which commissioners approved July 8, says county workers should, in suspect cases, ask animal owners to "provide sufficient evidence verifying that the animal meets the definition of a service animal."
"If the animal cannot perform the identified tasks or services," the rules said, "the animal will be removed from the building or program."
The policy also said that service dogs should be identified by a harness, cape or backpack.
Raiter said the policy's implementation was "not well thought out" and that county employees "weren't properly trained" in how it should be applied.
On Friday, the county said it will clarify the policy. A revised draft says employees can "identify the training that the service animal has received and the tasks the service animal has been trained to perform." The county also said it would strike language suggesting animals "should be fitted with identifying equipment" or that owners should "provide sufficient evidence" that their animal provides a service.
Michael Evans, a county prosecutor who assists with civil matters, said his office is still investigating Brown's allegations.
"We want to do what's right for the public and make sure we do the right thing," he said.
momto1 wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:00 AM:
" Service animals should be marked somehow, like a jacket, scarf, or backpack. Otherwise like it is happening anyone can say their animal is a service animal. I am all for service animals they do play a vital role in their owners life, but I see nothing wrong in having to prove that they are qualified just like anyone else doing a job. "
concerned wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:11 AM:
" I agree with mom that if a person says they have a service animal that they should have documentation proving it is truely a service animal. Also if a person has a service animal they should have to keep it properly groomed and bathed. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:36 AM:
" The laws are unreasonable and ripe to be abused. While service animals do perform a vital service and assist with the freedom of the disabled, the animals should have to be registered. The current rules allow any person to claim a disability and any animal as a service animal. This has already been demonstrated by the bird, the monkey and the snake. As written these rule are a disservice to those who truly have disabilities and require a service animal for their independence. The next time I go into a public place I think I will take my service animal, Betsy, with me. She is a cow. "
columbian wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:40 AM:
" Whats with all this dog thing everwhere you go someone has there dog along side. Comes a time when leave the dog at home.Seems to me its time for MISS BROWN TO GET A POWERED SCOOTER. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:47 AM:
" Melanie Brown, Im sorry to hear that you deal with cronic back pain, as I do myself. It's great that your dog is a big help to you for I know first hand how hard and difficault it is to bend or kneal for anything what so ever, or even just to be able to walk at all. I am so glad to hear that "Sunny" is a bigg help to you for she has helped me also. I have "Cockatoo" a large bird who i feel is a SERVICE animale also. some people just have no idea what " Service Animal " means. To you and I or others who have theses "Service animals" just will not ever understand what a big help they are towards us. My bird helps me with my depression and is a big help to me in so many ways. My Cockatoo talks and that in it self helps me to deal with my depression due to "CRONIC LOW BACK PAIN" I also was asked to leave a Store here in town " Longview" and was told I can not bring my bird in the store and was told I could not make my purchase untill I took my Bird out of the store. I wish You the best of luck in your lawsuit, as is it not all about money. If you need my Help shirley_n_mike_2006@yahoo.com "
rosy wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:59 AM:
" Hey There, Columbian,
Are you volunteering to pay for this powered scooter? Do you know how expensive they are or how limiting they can be? Scooters don't do stairs. They have to be transported to the location you want to shop at. A carrier is expensive too. A basic no frills carrier can cost another 2 thousand dollars.
Few things are cheaper or more supportive than a service animal. I agree a snake isn't going to be much help with mobility issues, who are you to judge what does and doesn't help with a painfully debilitating physical problem. And the artical doesn't mention that the "proof"s that the county asks for are specifically disallowed by both state and federal law.
So, is your check in the mail? "
Are you volunteering to pay for this powered scooter? Do you know how expensive they are or how limiting they can be? Scooters don't do stairs. They have to be transported to the location you want to shop at. A carrier is expensive too. A basic no frills carrier can cost another 2 thousand dollars.
Few things are cheaper or more supportive than a service animal. I agree a snake isn't going to be much help with mobility issues, who are you to judge what does and doesn't help with a painfully debilitating physical problem. And the artical doesn't mention that the "proof"s that the county asks for are specifically disallowed by both state and federal law.
So, is your check in the mail? "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:07 AM:
" I myself do not, will not tell anyone who I do not wish to know my medical history as to why I am "DISABLED" it's within my legal rights to refuse any information about my "DISIABLITY" even to A law inforcement officer, unless there is A warrent asking for that information. It is no-one's business but MY OWN unless otherwise ordered by a Judge. I do have legal Papers to show and prove why I am Disabled and that is all I need just like anyone elese who is "Legaly Disabled" "
tatman wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:11 AM:
" im sure the dog can smell the lawsuit on this one, and i do hope she wins it, if she can show she truly needs the dog for service. "
lascelles795 wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:16 AM:
" RE Columbian -- There's something about companionship with a dog as a service animal; a power scooter cannot provide that. If you drop something and you cannot pick it up due to a back injury, a service dog can pick it up for you. If you need help going down the stairs, a service dog can help you down those stairs, one and a time. Can you take a power scooter up and down stairs? There are some people with power scooters that really need them. And then there are people with power scooters that have them just to be lazy and not have to walk everywhere. Melanie, good luck with your lawsuit. I hope everything works out! :) "
transplant wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:24 AM:
" A bird is a service animal because it makes you happy? Please. My dog chases cats that wander into the yard. It also takes my kids for walks when they're drving me nuts. I guess that makes it a service dog. I've also got a huge spider in the back yard that traps and eats flies. I can tell you what it's been trained to do and even demonstrate the tricks it does. Must be a service spider. Please. I would have loved to have watched this drama unfold in Judge Warning's courtroom, expect for the smell. Finally, a judge with some common scents (pun intended). "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:35 AM:
" If I am not mistaken, there are laws that bar animals from certain types establishments unless they are service animals. Such as restaurants and supermarkets. These laws were established to protect the health of the public. Now all you have to do is claim a disability and what ever animal you have with you is a service animal. Good luck with your law suit. I am sure during the trial stage you will have to prove you a medically diagnosed disability and that your dog is a true service animal. If you get away with this B.S. I am getting Betsy and going for the million. "
longview citizen wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:39 AM:
" I was of the understanding that a true service animal has a card issued to the owner stating the animal is that. You must have these animals certified and they go through special training. Having worked at the hospital we were setting up a program to have folks visit with animals and they all had to be certified and then a card issued to the handler that the animal wore when in the facility. I understand it is the same for service animals. "
Former Res wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:39 AM:
" Let's see... I suffer from depression so I understand how delibating it can be. Yet, I don't have a bird that I take everywhere with me. Also, the chihuahua or other small dog stuffed in a purse is not a "service dog". My Lab helps me in many ways, both emotional and physically, but I would never claim her as a service animal nor take her everywhere with me - except Petco where she is welcome! I call her "my helper dog", but never "my service dog" - big difference. If a person has an emotional instability, how about pyschiatric treatment or even finding a friend to go shopping with? There is a fine, fine line to walk wtih service animals. A service animal should have to be registered, certified, and identified with a cape or other marking. It's all getting way out of hand... "
Rural Citizen wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:53 AM:
" As a disabled person I guarantee you that I will never go to your fair or go to your community events because of your obvious discrimination against people with disabilities. I really feel these people who have been stripped of their Constitutional protections need to call the ACLU and file a lawsuit against the county. Maybe THAT would wake up the commissioners. You need to know that a high number of disabled people live in this area because it is cheaper to live and we disabled must figure out how to live on fixed income.
Oh yes, before I sign out. SHAME ON YOU ALL FOR ALLOWING THIS IN OUR COMMUNITY. "
Oh yes, before I sign out. SHAME ON YOU ALL FOR ALLOWING THIS IN OUR COMMUNITY. "
valley thorn wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:54 AM:
" I know for a fact there are people who claim their dogs are service dogs just to be able to take their dogs everywhere. For the people who really need the assistance I am all for the animals. But I am highly allergic to dogs and cats, so what about my rights? There have been times when I have been shopping, dining out in a restaurant etc. and had to leave because of an allergy attack. and if I see one more dog being carried around in Winco I am going to scream! "
DUH wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:54 AM:
" I can see it now. Thousands of people will bring their pets with them where ever they go and claim they are "service animals". The laws need to be changed so that if you claim it's a "service animal" you need to be able to show proof. Without it people will take their "attack dogs" with them everywhere they go and claim that the "service" they provide is protection. And lastly, the last thing I want to worry about in the local supermarket or mall is stepping in a big pile of dog crap while cruising the isles. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:30 AM:
" I find it so very sad and infact very sick to think people who are not DISABLED what so ever think they have the right to just push us Disabled people to the side and treat us like we are a piece of crap. well I have news for you fool's who do not know and never been disiabled what so ever what it is like to have to live this way the rest of your lives. untill you do maybe you people who are not DISABLED what so ever need to shut your mouth's, become Disabled then speak your mind, see how you feel then. when I first read this artical I knew it was going to be Blasted right out of the water, so what if someone who is legaly Disabled needs an "service animals". Melanie Brown, You and anyone elese who is legaly Disabled has my support 200% and I hope you win your lawsuit and if you need me to be in court I will be there to support you in this matter. "
Blogger Jogger wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:32 AM:
" Ahh, the stench of a Bouvier. Bouvier des Flanders are, indeed, wonderful service animals. They are strong, patient, and very tuned in to the needs of their owners. However, they are famous for the stink that is reported in this article. They can be groomed daily, which would cut down on the aroma, but not by someone with back pain. Frankly, I've stood next to humans that smelled worse and they wouldn't be asked to leave. I'm sorry, but I think the County may have dropped the ball on this one. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:48 AM:
" if you have allergy's t dogs, then tell that to the blind man whohas to use a dog to see the next time you are near one. And when you do I hope he or she tells you where to go with your allergy's, and if you realy are allergic to dogs then I want to see medical proof that you really are allergic to dogs just like everyone is asking of the woman who needs her dog as a service animal because she is DISABLED. "
pilaf wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:55 AM:
" Transplant, you owe me a new keyboard.
Ona more serious note, I recently looked into getting our Golden Retriever certified as a therapy dog so she could visit nursing homes etc. The people I spoke with are very concerned about the safety of the public, safety of the animals and the reputation of the 'service animal' designation. They insist that the animals are gentle, impeccably groomed when performing their service functions, and have had all their immunizations. They test the dogs for gentleness and make sure they have the right personality, and are able to be controlled both on and off the leash.
I assume that anyone who has a dog understands how they make a positive impact on our lives, but not every pet is a service dog. "
Ona more serious note, I recently looked into getting our Golden Retriever certified as a therapy dog so she could visit nursing homes etc. The people I spoke with are very concerned about the safety of the public, safety of the animals and the reputation of the 'service animal' designation. They insist that the animals are gentle, impeccably groomed when performing their service functions, and have had all their immunizations. They test the dogs for gentleness and make sure they have the right personality, and are able to be controlled both on and off the leash.
I assume that anyone who has a dog understands how they make a positive impact on our lives, but not every pet is a service dog. "
TwentySomething wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:19 AM:
" I think these women have an excellent case, so long as it is argued by a competent attorney. The definition of a service animal is very loose, and they are not required to have special training or certification. They simply need to be well-behaved and under control. I believe Dawn Moran has an especially easy case, since they violated several laws by questioning her disability, forcing her to demonstrate her disability (which she did), and then by STILL denying her access even AFTER she demostrated how her lab helps provide a service for her.
The hardest part of this is just finding an attorney willing to garner some ill-will from the county by taking this on. Good luck on that part! "
The hardest part of this is just finding an attorney willing to garner some ill-will from the county by taking this on. Good luck on that part! "
goddesskk1 wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:24 AM:
" Service dogs are used for many types of disabilities, not all are visible. The deputy sheriff and others need to know that some service dogs alert their owners to seizures that are coming on as an example. Would the deputy like to see the woman having a seizure demonstrated? Back in March, DBTAC NW, which provides information on the ADA, and service dogs, gave a free training in Longview. Only a handful of people attended - where were the representatives of public agencies and businesses? Peace Health was astute enough to have a representative attend, so kudos to them. For those wanting more information, DBTAC NW can be contacted at 1-800-949-4232 or www.dbtacnorthwest.org "
valley thorn wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:34 AM:
" Seems like some are very upset about the recent pot busts! "
transplant wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:34 AM:
" No offense intended (another odor pun?), but this isn't about the blind man with a true service dog. I don't think anyone here is complaining about that, even those with allergies. The rub is with those few folks that have found a loophole and drag their dirty, untrained dogs (or birds) through the rest of our lives. I do have a dog, and it's often more well-behaved than the kiddos, but I wouldn't dream of walking it through a store. It's NOT a service dog. It's a DOG. I too, have chronic back pain. It's a bummer, but instead of looking for ways to be less active, I find ways to be more. Lose a little weight, don't park in the fire lane at the store and assume those signs are for everyone else, take the stairs instead of the elevator at the Hall of Justice when you go up ONE floor. It's amazing how your body will respond to some exercise. With a litle fitness, often depression will subside as well. Sorry about the keyboard Pilaf, but to use the judge's words, I find it all kind of "laughable". Gotta go, I'm teaching my dog how to pick up its piles, then it's off to Winco. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:41 AM:
" I am sure that all of us who own a pet knows the unconditional love they give us. How they can change your mood when you get home at the end of a miserable day. But that does not make every dog, cat, rat, snake, bird, raccoon, fish, skunk, mink, pony, pig or etc. a service animal. That just makes them a pet. The problem is that there are people who abuse the system. Just because you say it is a service animal does not make it so. As for disability, in order to get a disabled placard for your vehicle it must be verified by a physician. Try to get one because you are a little down. You should need to have some type of ID issued that verifies you are in fact disabled and therefore need a service animal. You don't need to disclose the disability. Just have the card. The card would entitle you to all of the protections under the ADA. Just like service animals, just saying you are disabled does not make it so. I can say that I am polka dotted red but saying it does not make me polka dotted. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 2, 2008 12:38 PM:
" To;Columbian,transplant,DUH(I can see how you came up with that one), and my favorite...Bert, Have you ever read the Americans with Disabilites Act as it pertains to service animals? Then keep your fingers off of the key board. You're expressing your feelings about something that you know nothing about. And you can tell. Like Valley Thorn, I'm tried of seeing little dogs in purses, in places where they don't belong. Ask those people what their dog does for them, 97% of the time you'll find that they just wanted to bring them in with them. Turn them into the store managers, I do, they're breaking the law.There's a BIG difference between a Service dog, Theraphy Dog and a dog in a purse! A service dog provides a service for their owner. I don't like asking my family or other people to help me all of the time. Everytime I drop something or need to pick something up.I have a well trained Service Dog for that! He picks things up for me, and or brings me things that I ask for...The phone,shoes,med bottles,there's so many things that he does for me I can't even count them, He even gets the clothes out of the dryer for me (when betsy does that, let me know!),I just can't get him to fold them...Yet!! I's hard to name all of the things that HOSS does for me. My family and I have taught him well. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 12:40 PM:
" i have that disabled place card in fact and in fact it was my DR. who says that my bird can be used for a Service animal if it helps me then so be it!!! its so clear that most of ou responding to this add ARE NOT DISABLED what so ever and never have been DISABLED, So you have no clue what its like to not be able to walk, to not be able to get out of bed, to be not able to do any kind of exersize, to be in pain so badly that you need help, such as a dog or even a BIRD as in my case, have you ever been in pain that your pain level is off the pain scale? have you ever been Disabled for 21 years, like myself? Untill you have been there done that, you are never going to knwo and or understand ever, and i do mean never understand what so ever!!! maybe she cant bath her dog, maybe she needs help bathing her dog, Are you going to be the one who is gonna step up and help her bath her dog because she cant do it herself? Are you going to be the one to try to get to knwo this woman or women and see for yourself what they are going throgh? That's what I thought, Now step away from the add, till you meet this disabled person or persons or you become disabled yourself. "
Local Mom wrote on Sep 2, 2008 12:46 PM:
" I have to agree with the statement that there should be a distinction between service and helper animal. I would venture to guess that anyone with severe allergies understands the use of an actual Service Animal for example: to help the blind. I see too many people stroll into the doctors office, where I work, and ask their doctor for a note stating depression and that they require a pet to help alleviate their symptoms. This suddenly becomes a license for them to have pets in their rental homes where none were allowed before and for them to carry them around in stores & such. Far too many people know just enough about the system to take advantage of it because they feel some sort of entitlement. Maybe they get a chuckle at the look at what Im getting away with but really all it does is make the rest of the people who are legitimately using the system look bad. "
Local Mom wrote on Sep 2, 2008 12:52 PM:
" To ChronicPain - your doctor will sign anything to get you out of his office. "
Girth VonPhister wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:01 PM:
" I think the root of the problem is that the term "disabled" has become too broad. It needs to be more defined and it should be quite specific. On one hand you have the "disabled" screaming because they are treated differently and on the other hand you have them screaming because they are NOT being treated differently. Make up your minds, you whining hypoctites.... "
transplant wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:06 PM:
" Dawnornot- Not sure why I raised your hackles here; I agreed with you. It's not about true service dogs, it's about selfish, inconsiderate people who think they can do whatever they want to if it makes them feel better (a "comfort monkey???) And as for offering my feelings without knowing of what I speak, I've never used heroin either but I "feel" like it should be illegal and I "feel" like it's bad for you. Am I not entitled to "feel" that way? "
DUH wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:15 PM:
" If you can't bend over to pick up your own wallet, who picks up after your dog? I have a son in law that is deaf. He has a service dog. I had an uncle who was blind. He had a service dog. In those situations, I am all for it. My wife has severe back problems and has had for years. When we asked the doctor if it would be advisable for her to get a service dog, he said ABSOLUTELY NOT! The constant tugging and pulling of the dog on the leash will aggravate the condition. Having the dog around the house is not the issue here. The issue is taking service animals into public buildings. If you're not blind, or deaf, I have to say, no. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:18 PM:
" Dawnornot: You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is there needs to be a way to differentiate between someone who has a legitimate service animal and someone who, as you say, "Ask those people what their dog does for them, 97% of the time you'll find that they just wanted to bring them in with them." No I have not read the ADA but I do have common sense which evidently was not written into the act. As for Betsy, she is a service animal because she keeps my lawn manicured, provides sustenance(milk and later hamburger and steak) and when I feel depressed all I have to do is look into her big brown eyes and hear hear soothing MMMOOOO to feel better. "
Rosey Glasses wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:18 PM:
" For those that believe the disabled need to help from an ordinary dog! think again. Animals that truly are needed while in an establishment, go ahead and bring it in... but as for the bird or snake? it cannot help you in a store or government building, leave it home. These women with their dogs should not have had these issues! I am disabled (100%) I have cronic back problems from an accident in 94, yet I work hard to keep mobile and even work. I don't have a service dog (I had a companion dog til he died in 2003 and I miss him much, he was 90% wolf hybred. I tried to replace him before he died, but the (in)humane society put down the only animal I would have taken... because she was a hybred wolf, white with a shadow on her back...loving and caring and passed all their stress tests. Her only crime was being part wolf). So those who don't know... don't comment! "
loudly wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:40 PM:
" Its funny how many people missed the point of the article. This has nothing to do with being disabled. It has to do with people bringing their stinking animals into places where animals are not allowed by claiming them as service animals. It sounds apparent, by Judge Warnings description, that this lady's dog was not a service animal and was not performing any service other than pulling the woman in the opposite direction. I don't think anybody would argue that disabled people should be free of discrimination. But, at the same time, why are disabled people so against rules that would help weed out phony's. "
Drayvan wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:02 PM:
" Being a lifetime resident of this area, I'm embarrassed by some of the "redneck" comments that I've seen posted here. I'm disabled, legally disabled, and I had to jump through many hoops to get that designation, thank you very much, Girth. And I'm embarrassed to have that label everyday. I can't get out of bed everyday, sometimes I'm totally out of it, my wife calls it "my grogs", from my medication, yet I "Look" healthy and able and still I receive many strange looks when I ride a scooter at the store. Should I carry a card to show that I'm disabled? Well, until our society learns to understand and accept the disabled... NO! Should a service dog wear identifying marks... HELL no! It's humiliating enough to admit that I'm not an able-bodied person anymore, let alone having to advertise it! Or prove it to anyone besides my doctor and the government insurance that pays my bills. DO people take advantage of the rules and regulations enacted to help the disabled, yes; but you don't make it HARDER on the disabled to prevent that abuse, or make the disabled give up their rights to privacy, to satisfy your curiosity. That's what the Americans with Disabilities Act was meant to address and prevent. You want to stop the abuse, use the courts and the law, that is what they are there for. Make it illegal to impersonate a disabled person, I have no problem showing a judge that I'm disabled. "
Drayvan wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:06 PM:
" As for what constitutes a "service animal", that is for the medical doctors and the legislation to decide, not us. "
justice4all wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:07 PM:
" So if I have a card from my doctor that states I have severe allergies to animal dander and feathers, who gets to stay? I am more than happy to leave an area when I see a service dog, usually wearing the appropriate bib or halter. I do not believe I should have to leave because someone wants their comfort animal with them. Doctors are forced to write these so called "service animal" papers or face a lawsuit for discrimination of some form. My own doctor admits that he would never refuse to give a patient one if requested. It is just to great a liability. Seems everyone feels entitled to "their rights" so off to court we all go. The real winners are the lawyers....again. "
pilaf wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:20 PM:
" Loudly, you said it. Why are the disabled so against having rules to weed out the phonies? I honestly don't understand that. I am assuming that disabled people have the right not to be subjected to every squawking, hooting, barking, slithering animal that someone says is a service animal just like the rest of us. The loose monkey must have been a real hazard: monkeys can BITE and can carry diseases that can harm humans. (Ebola anyone?) Dogs and other animals can have rabies.
I also don't understand why there is a stigma to a service dog wearing a vest or harness. We were always taught as kids that the dog was wearing the vest or harness to show that they were working and not to be petted by the public as they were "on duty". I have never looked at a service dog without smiling and being impressed with the demeanor and professionalism of these (properly trained and certified) animals. "
I also don't understand why there is a stigma to a service dog wearing a vest or harness. We were always taught as kids that the dog was wearing the vest or harness to show that they were working and not to be petted by the public as they were "on duty". I have never looked at a service dog without smiling and being impressed with the demeanor and professionalism of these (properly trained and certified) animals. "
Louie wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:34 PM:
" I know service dogs do wear identifying coats, halters or something of the like when they are in training. I don't know about after the training is complete though.
I am a dog lover and I have never seen why so many people get to upset with dogs in public places. In Europe they are allowed in the restaurants with the human patrons. Actually letting your customers bring their dogs into your business is usually good for your business and we really don't have the luxury of turning away customers.
Having a bad smelling dog in a courtroom can't be pleasant and I am sure Judge Warning is the most sympathetic judge in this case simply because he raises service dogs.
If one has chronic back pain it is probably very difficult to bathe a dog, especially a large one.
This is going to be a case to open another can of worms with how the county handles the business they are elected for...some is not handled competently.
I am sure the ADA has strict rules and guidelines and they should be adhered to.
My sympathies go out to all involved...this can't be an easy decision. "
I am a dog lover and I have never seen why so many people get to upset with dogs in public places. In Europe they are allowed in the restaurants with the human patrons. Actually letting your customers bring their dogs into your business is usually good for your business and we really don't have the luxury of turning away customers.
Having a bad smelling dog in a courtroom can't be pleasant and I am sure Judge Warning is the most sympathetic judge in this case simply because he raises service dogs.
If one has chronic back pain it is probably very difficult to bathe a dog, especially a large one.
This is going to be a case to open another can of worms with how the county handles the business they are elected for...some is not handled competently.
I am sure the ADA has strict rules and guidelines and they should be adhered to.
My sympathies go out to all involved...this can't be an easy decision. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:34 PM:
" Q: What is a service animal?A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government.Service animals perform some of the functions and tasks that the individual with a disability cannot perform for him or herself. "Seeing eye dogs" are one type of service animal, used by some individuals who are blind. This is the type of service animal with which most people are familiar. But there are service animals that assist persons with other kinds of disabilities in their day-to-day activities. Some examples include:Alerting persons with hearing impairments to sounds. Pulling wheelchairs or carrying and picking up things for persons with mobility impairments.Assisting persons with mobility impairments with balance. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:35 PM:
" Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet? A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:37 PM:
" Q: What must I do when an individual with a service animal comes to my business? A: The service animal must be permitted to accompany the individual with a disability to all areas of the facility where customers are normally allowed to go. An individual with a service animal may not be segregated from other customers. Q: I have always had a clearly posted "no pets" policy at my establishment. Do I still have to allow service animals in? A: Yes. A service animal is not a pet. The ADA requires you to modify your "no pets" policy to allow the use of a service animal by a person with a disability. This does not mean you must abandon your "no pets" policy altogether but simply that you must make an exception to your general rule for service animals.Q: My county health department has told me that only a seeing eye or guide dog has to be admitted. If I follow those regulations, am I violating the ADA? A: Yes, if you refuse to admit any other type of service animal on the basis of local health department regulations or other state or local laws. The ADA provides greater protection for individuals with disabilities and so it takes priority over the local or state laws or regulations. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:39 PM:
" Q: Can I charge a maintenance or cleaning fee for customers who bring service animals into my businessA: No. Neither a deposit nor a surcharge may be imposed on an individual with a disability as a condition to allowing a service animal to accompany the individual with a disability, even if deposits are routinely required for pets. However, a public accommodation may charge its customers with disabilities if a service animal causes damage so long as it is the regular practice of the entity to charge non-disabled customers for the same types of damages. For example, a hotel can charge a guest with a disability for the cost of repairing or cleaning furniture damaged by a service animal if it is the hotel's policy to charge when non-disabled guests cause such damage.? Q: I operate a private taxicab and I don't want animals in my taxi; they smell, shed hair and sometimes have "accidents." Am I violating the ADA if I refuse to pick up someone with a service animal?
A: Yes. Taxicab companies may not refuse to provide services to individuals with disabilities. Private taxicab companies are also prohibited from charging higher fares or fees for transporting individuals with disabilities and their service animals than they charge to other persons for the same or equivalent service.Q: Am I responsible for the animal while the person with a disability is in my business? A: No. The care or supervision of a service animal is solely the responsibility of his or her owner. You are not required to provide care or food or a special location for the animal. "
A: Yes. Taxicab companies may not refuse to provide services to individuals with disabilities. Private taxicab companies are also prohibited from charging higher fares or fees for transporting individuals with disabilities and their service animals than they charge to other persons for the same or equivalent service.Q: Am I responsible for the animal while the person with a disability is in my business? A: No. The care or supervision of a service animal is solely the responsibility of his or her owner. You are not required to provide care or food or a special location for the animal. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:41 PM:
" Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control? A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually. Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises. Q: Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive to my business? A: There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not required to accommodate a service animal--that is, when doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business. Generally, this is not likely to occur in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities. But when it does, for example, when a dog barks during a movie, the animal can be excluded. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:42 PM:
" If you have further questions about service animals or other requirements of the ADA, you may call the U.S. Department of Justice's toll-free ADA Information Line at 800-514-0301 (voice) or
800-514-0383 (TDD).
DUPLICATION OF THIS DOCUMENT IS ENCOURAGED.
http://www.guidehorse.com/DOJ.htm "
800-514-0383 (TDD).
DUPLICATION OF THIS DOCUMENT IS ENCOURAGED.
http://www.guidehorse.com/DOJ.htm "
classy wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:43 PM:
" Hoss is a terrific dog and I'm glad he does so much for you. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:45 PM:
" Please, Please, Please, read all the info i just posted before making anymore comments it's all right there in black and white, take it to the court rooms and lawyers if you don't like us D I S-A B L E D People!! Thank You Very Much Michael E. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:47 PM:
" Justice4all: What you get if you have a note from your doctor that you have severe allergies to animal dander is to require your employer to install a high power, very expensive air filtration systems. Or you can sue them for discrimination. "
Da Haba wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:50 PM:
" While some of the comments may appear to be cold-hearted and ignorant, in reality the ADA has become a PC nightmare...and those of you with a real disability should be railing against those who "think" they have a disability.
My wife suffers from a severely crippling disease. She has suffered four exploded vertebrae and permanent nerve damage. At times she can barely walk, and she's frequently in pain, but she refuses to get a handicap parking tag, and while she freely admits she gets depressed, she readily admits it is because she is competitive and doesn't want to viewed as anything but 100%.
My suggestion for those of you with a REAL disability....don't defend some hokey cry for help. Demand that this person not only provide proof that the dog is trained, but that she actually needs a trained dog. Demand that the ADA design its rules so that your rights are viewed as accommodating and not special.....
.....and just in case anyone gets mad, this message was typed by my trained "writers block monkey." "
My wife suffers from a severely crippling disease. She has suffered four exploded vertebrae and permanent nerve damage. At times she can barely walk, and she's frequently in pain, but she refuses to get a handicap parking tag, and while she freely admits she gets depressed, she readily admits it is because she is competitive and doesn't want to viewed as anything but 100%.
My suggestion for those of you with a REAL disability....don't defend some hokey cry for help. Demand that this person not only provide proof that the dog is trained, but that she actually needs a trained dog. Demand that the ADA design its rules so that your rights are viewed as accommodating and not special.....
.....and just in case anyone gets mad, this message was typed by my trained "writers block monkey." "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:52 PM:
" Companion animal? Isn't that what the rest of us would call a "pet"? That is like paid administrative leave. Isn't that what the rest of us would call a vacation? "
AnotherLameOpinion wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:54 PM:
" I agree with a DOG that truly helps being a service animal, but a bird? What's next, a service gerbil??? Leave the animals at home, you're ruining it for people who have legitimate service animals that legitimately provide a service. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 3:07 PM:
" AnotherLameOpinion, look at what I just said and posted and go read the info I just posted. How about a guide Horse? So why Not a bird or dog or cat or skunk or cow or snake? well I said and proved my Point here in all of my postings and did my homework for the day. Have fun everyone, see ya in court for I will be there if im given enough time and notice in support of the A.D.A. and the Law and what it says not some Animal. "
Girth VonPhister wrote on Sep 2, 2008 3:43 PM:
" Obviously cronicpain isn't disabled in his/her fingers. Keep blathering on, if it makes you feel better. The fact is there is obvious abuse of the term "disability" in this country. You people wear it like a crown to siut your needs and wants. Just because the ADA says it, doesn't make it right. The pendulum has swung way too far to the left. "
pilaf wrote on Sep 2, 2008 3:58 PM:
" cronicpain, you made a case for the opposite point of view. The ADA says the service animals are "trained" to "perform functions the individual can't perform for him or herself". What function exactly is a bird or a snake performing that the individual with disabilities can't? I don't think anyone on this board wants to put a stop to legitimate service animals, but just because a pet makes you "feel good" doesn't mean it is performing as a service animal. "Feeling good" is not a constitutional right. Access to public areas and services is. "
Atrucker wrote on Sep 2, 2008 4:04 PM:
" There is all kinds of discrimination against disabled folks . Parking area violations happen on a daily basis all over the city and they never get a ticket. I also do not buy in to the little dog, bird, monkey , snake stuff . Depession can be controled in other ways . Try getting back to work after being disabled . I assure it is a mountain most will not want to climb .
It is like your head says, I can do this and the body says , Nope it is not going to happen. And it makes you very angry till you accept things are not going to change to much.
I was screwed out of a good income and nice house by becoming disabled. This hit me hard broad side . Down and out for almost ten years now. I am now One year past open heart surgery, and trying to control diabetes, and have two bad disks in my back , yet I still get around fairly well considering all that. You have no clue to go from the big bucks to next to nothing , just eats at you. "
It is like your head says, I can do this and the body says , Nope it is not going to happen. And it makes you very angry till you accept things are not going to change to much.
I was screwed out of a good income and nice house by becoming disabled. This hit me hard broad side . Down and out for almost ten years now. I am now One year past open heart surgery, and trying to control diabetes, and have two bad disks in my back , yet I still get around fairly well considering all that. You have no clue to go from the big bucks to next to nothing , just eats at you. "
Drayvan wrote on Sep 2, 2008 4:11 PM:
" The point is, whether it be service animals or ramps instead of stairs, Disabled persons want what everyone else wants... Anything that makes life easier to deal with! And I don't mean anything to allow us to be lazy or inconsiderate of others, but just what we need to help us be like everyone else. Yes, there are abuses in the system, just like in every aspect of our society, but we need to deal with the abuses just ilke we deal with other abuses... legaly. That is what the ADA is trying to do! It's not a liberal plot against the conservative right, Girth, nor the result of past wrongs, it's just something to even the field! LIke the Bill of Rights, or the Civil Rights Act, the ADA ensures that that people are treated equally, even if they can't walk, or see, or hear, or even if they can't stand straight without a service dog to lean on. So Girth, quit being so ignorant. Just because there is abuse, doesn't negate the purpose of, and need for, the ADA that others have. "
Drayvan wrote on Sep 2, 2008 4:18 PM:
" I'm in the same boat, Atrucker. Diability pay is only a quarter of what I use to bring in and it's been ten years for me as well. I've pften thought of getting a service dog, or training one of the three dogs I have, but I feel embarassed just thinking about taking one in public. I too believe that there have to be limits on this "service animal" designation, but that needs to be settled by the people we pay to handle these things, the legislation and the law. I for one am not qualified to judge the veracity of someone's claim to disablility, nor there need for a service animal, and I don't know anyone outside the medical community who is.... "
AnotherLameOpinion wrote on Sep 2, 2008 4:57 PM:
" I fully agree with the use of "service" animals, but sorry, what can that bird do for you in public??? It's just ridiculous to insinuate you would need that bird with you in a store or restaurant. And a horse??? Gimme a break, you expect the rest of the world to incure unreasonable expenses to accomodate a horse??? Get real. I am sure there are plenty of legitimately disabled people rolling their eyes at your comments. I too suffer from chronic back pain (Facet syndrome) and dropped over 1000 lbs on both feet and it hurts terribly to be on them more than 3 or 4 hours at a time, maybe I should get a service horse to ride around so my feetsies don't hurt??? I don't know whether to laugh or shake my head at your comments. "
roudy russ wrote on Sep 2, 2008 5:16 PM:
" What about the stinch from the dog? The artical says about halfway through that the dog smelled so bad that people were leaving the court room. I don't think that the ADA covers that. "
concerned wrote on Sep 2, 2008 5:22 PM:
" Hey cronicpain as you yourself stated the animal must be trained and not just some animal you have as a regular PET.. I mean come on there are many disabled people in this town and trust me we dont all say we have a service animal. It just plain ridiculous to say a pet is a service animal. "
racingrocks wrote on Sep 2, 2008 5:24 PM:
" My 12 year old makes me feel better when I'm depressed,so I should be able to bring her into the bar with me?....On a more serious note, I was depressed and suffer from chronic back pain but instead of being the victim and using an animal, I chose more couseling for mt depression and a lifestyle change and more excercise for the pain.I used to say I couldnt do it but realized that "cant" basically defeats you before you even try.And "cronicpain"....you just made the case that the ADA was irresposibly written and provides loopholes to people who want to be lazy and use the system.The law seriously needs to be re-written. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 5:38 PM:
" OK. I have skimmed the ADA title III. It defines many trivial things. Even the loop size in carpet. However the only reference to service animals is the definition that Cronicpain provided. "Service animal means any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including, but not limited to, guiding individuals with impaired vision, alerting individuals with impaired hearing to intruders or sounds, providing minimal protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, or fetching dropped items (EEOC & DOJ, 1992)." The Act goes on to state that since most people do not carry documentation of their disabilty nor do all service animals require certification, just stating you are disabled and the animal is a service animal is sufficent to force you to accept the person's statements at face value. This is just out of control. Several years ago, not long, an employee who claimed to be disabled sued his employer for not makeing "reasonable accommodations" for his disability. During the trial it was discovered that he did not in fact have a disability. He won his suit anyway because his employer should have "reasonably" assumed that he was in fact disabled and under the ADA they should have made the reasonable accommodations. How out of control has this gotten? "
cynic954 wrote on Sep 2, 2008 5:55 PM:
" to AnotherLameOpinion miniture horses are actually used as a service animal. they are often guides for the blind, helpers for people with parkinsons and also for pulling people in wheelchairs. caspiun monkeys have been trained to turn pages, grasp items and work switches. Couldnt find anything for birds or snakes etc.etc. other than companion animals which are not covered. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 6:09 PM:
" No where in the ADA Title III could I find, when I skimmed it, a provision for "Companion Animals". As I said in an earlier post, a companion animal is just a politically correct way to refer to a pet. It is not covered under the ADA. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 6:25 PM:
" cynic954: You are correct. Miniature horses and monkeys have been trained as service animals. But let me ask you, the next time you are in a nice restaurant trying to enjoy a relaxing meal do you want to sit next to a horse or monkey? Or the next time you are in a movie theater? Maybe the rating board need to add a new rating for movies. SA13, some scenes may be to intense for service animals "
1arealocal wrote on Sep 2, 2008 6:39 PM:
" This is sooo far out of hand it is ridiculous. The ADA needs to be amended to protect the dignity of the truly disabled while weeding out the "hackers". As a business owner I would value my sign "right to refuse service" to the next "therapy snake" since I have a distinct phobia....maybe I should get a comfort mongoose to help me with my snake phobia. "
phoenix wrote on Sep 2, 2008 6:43 PM:
" On July 10th Judge Warning told me in the courtroom that before appearing before him again with my service dog I would have to produce a Doctor's statement that I had a disability and required a service dog. On July 14th when I arrived at the Hall of Justice to appear before another judge I was met in the parking lot by Duane Engler Cowlitz County Undersheriff and informed that Judge Warning had revised his order. He told me that Judge Warning had issued an order that I was not allowed in the building at all with my service dog. This was all based on the Cowlitz County Commissioners' new policy adopted on July 10th: "Animals Restricted in County Buildings Policy".
The Judge made no mention of any other issues until he began looking for excuses for his behavior after learning I would be filing a formal complaint. My service dog is regularly groomed and is always kept clean. Just because a judge makes a statement does not necessarily make it true. Those of you who are focusing on his statements concerning her smell and behavior need to realize that these are the self-serving comments of someone who knows he will be the defendant in a tort claim, a lawsuit in Federal Court, and the target of a Department of Justice complaint.
Also, aside from violating the ADA, these actions violate the Washington Law Against Discrimination (WLAD). "
The Judge made no mention of any other issues until he began looking for excuses for his behavior after learning I would be filing a formal complaint. My service dog is regularly groomed and is always kept clean. Just because a judge makes a statement does not necessarily make it true. Those of you who are focusing on his statements concerning her smell and behavior need to realize that these are the self-serving comments of someone who knows he will be the defendant in a tort claim, a lawsuit in Federal Court, and the target of a Department of Justice complaint.
Also, aside from violating the ADA, these actions violate the Washington Law Against Discrimination (WLAD). "
AnotherLameOpinion wrote on Sep 2, 2008 6:53 PM:
" bert: Funny, monkey in a restaurant? Watch out for flying feces!!! LOL This whole idea is just ridiculous!!! I agree with the dogs and other useful animals. I'm not argueing that a horse or a monkey can be useful, however, lets use a little common sense here. These animals just don't belong in many public places. Horses leave quite a mess behind if you've ever followed one. I would walk right out of any dining establishment that had one inside. "
DUH wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:05 PM:
" I have only one question phoenix. When you went to court on July 10th, did you take the stairs, or go up in the elevator? "
DUH wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:27 PM:
" only asking because the courts will focus on that. Not trying to be a jerk. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:50 PM:
" AnotherLameOpinion: The ADA does not make a distinction between service animals. If your service animal is a horse or monkey you must be allowed to bring them into the restaurant or the owner will face a law suit. "
justice4all wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:52 PM:
" Thanks Bert for your help in understandng this mess. I am sure my employer would be thrilled to learn about this extra cost to keep me employed. But what about public places? Seems we see these companion animals everywhere. I now get to enjoy shopping while looking out for everyones' carts or handbags with animals. A woman at Safeway actually threatened the store manager with a lawsuit when he asked why the dog was riding in the cart. She proudly proclaimed her right to the dog as a companion animal protected by the ADA because she gets nervous out in public and he calms her. As with the dog in court it stunk so bad people smelled it before they saw it. Because she stood in line behind me I had to step outside till she left and return to buy my groceries. So if I have a severe reaction to the animal and can't catch my breath, I get a trip to the ER and the dog goes on shopping. We outlaw second hand smoke but asthmatic attacks are quicker to kill. I would never deny the need for an animal that truly assists a person with their disability, but companion animals are PETS." "
pilaf wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:55 PM:
" 1arealocal: can I say that "Comfort Mongoose" is a great name for a band?
To the truly disabled: doesn't it make you mad that there are so many phonies out there? It sort of cheapens the whole thing when people are claiming disability for things like obesity and depression and conning everyone into accepting snakes and birds as service animals by threatening lawsuits, when you have legitimate needs and rights that should be the focus here?
Wherever there is a loophole those with inflated senses of entitlement will try to cash in just because they can. And Longview is FULL of them. "
To the truly disabled: doesn't it make you mad that there are so many phonies out there? It sort of cheapens the whole thing when people are claiming disability for things like obesity and depression and conning everyone into accepting snakes and birds as service animals by threatening lawsuits, when you have legitimate needs and rights that should be the focus here?
Wherever there is a loophole those with inflated senses of entitlement will try to cash in just because they can. And Longview is FULL of them. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:29 PM:
" Justice4all: The next time you run into a situation like that ask the person what part of the ADA Title III protects her right to a "Companion Animal"? Call their bluff. I know the next time I will. "
viper wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:31 PM:
" I have 2 small dogs 1 2 years old and 1 8 weeks old and I'am disabled they do a lot for me, they keep me laughing and they are my life partners , but in No way would I consider them a service animal yes I love them and we go everywhere together , but it still does not make it a service dog they are life companions. service dogs are trained for a certain jobs as that person needs and it's not fair to consider every animal a service animal unless they are trained for a certain task and can prove that they can do what is expected of them . lets not confuse service dogs with life companions : Viper "
transplant wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:10 PM:
" Oh Gawd. Life partners? Don't give them any ideas. First it was unmarried couples, then same sex couples. Before this is over the Libetards will be asking for the government and employers to provide benefits for snakes and monkeys. I've got a fish (well, no, I really don't). But if I did... what a crock. And the restaurant thing kills me. "I'll have the chicken-fried steak and the monkey will have the seafood platter with a side of..." (wait for it...) "bananas". I just hope Micheal Jackson doesn't catch wind of it (odor joke, sorry). He'll be walking through town with an elephant by weeks' end and I'm pretty sure he IS disabled. This is the funniest story I've heard in ten years, and just to reiterate- I'm all for service animals. If Warning is found to have violated anything related to this, I'll send him money to pay for it just on principle. "
cynic954 wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:26 PM:
" bert I have been in some restaurants where I would rather of had a horse next to me than some of the people I have had to eat by. Generaly the answer is no but if I didnt like it I could always move. Bonified service animals are never a problem. A bird, snake, rat, or some little purse dog is a different story. A police dog is a service dog by definition. But you dont see an officer setting down to dinner in a restaurant. As for cronicpain, well her online name is fitting. Her bird does not need to be in stores. Im sure a court of law would also agree. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 9:53 PM:
" It just dawned on me. Now I know why pirates with an eye patch and peg leg always have a parrot on their shoulders, they are service animals. Why didn't I realize this before now. "
bert wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:00 PM:
" cynic954: So where you going to move to? By the guy with the snake draped over his shoulders? May be over by the woman with the cockatiel on her shoulder squawking something about the poor quality of the crackers? By the way, if you are eating at places where you would rather sit by a horse or monkey you should upgrade the places where you eat. By the way, even though the police dog is a service animal the police officer is hypothetically not disabled. "
columbian wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:11 PM:
" In my statement about leaving the dog at home.Reason for this is all to often anywhere you go theres dogs. Shopping,ball games,nice for the owners but some people are not dog lovers.how many times have you seen someone driving a car with a dog in there face.I own a dog but I never try to make him be a problem for other people.As for service dogs im all for them.PS SPELL DOG BACKWARDS. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:02 PM:
" first of all I never said I my cockatoo IS A SERVICE animal, I said that my cockatoo " I feel that she is a service to myself" mybad for the miss understanding, but like i have said before it shouldnt matter what kind of service animal someone has as long as it is of some kind of service to the person who is needing the animal for service like, Melanie Brown and alot of others, yes maybe the dog needs some training, maybe the dog needs to be warning a backpack or some kind of dog sweater or dog shirt that says the dog is a service animal and be certifide. I dont knwo, I know this of all the people who have made thier comments about this issue I am very sure that not one of us is a lawyer including myself, I just wish the best for anyone who is Disabled and is in need of a service animal of any kind for I know first hand that my son has a service dog and is registerd as such and does wear a dog vest saying such on both sides of the vest " Service Dog" and never once ever has my son ever beed asked to perform or been asked to have hid service dog to perform and prove that the dog can do the duties of a service animal. my son has had his dog about 10 years. "
1arealocal wrote on Sep 3, 2008 12:07 AM:
" RE: Pilaf...look for the "Comfort Mongoose" coming to a local store near you. I hear when snakes are scarce they will feed on noisy, squawking birds in restaurants...I don't know about monkeys though. To the bona fide ADA's out there I would be irate if some spoiled brat with her "purse pet" claimed it to be a companion dog because the thing is too strung out and nervous to be left alone...geesh. BTW I would be happy to support you support all your rights. I just can't stand the fakers and greedy lawyers that are going to exploit this. Just my .02 "
Banana wrote on Sep 3, 2008 2:20 AM:
" I have been disabled for over 34 years and there is one thing you are totally missing the point about. Most people with diaabilities learn to componsate. You can use canes, walkers carry devices to pick up or grab dropped on hard to reach items. Also I have found most people are quite willing to hand me something I can't get to in a store. Especially if I ask politely and thank them. Being disabled doesn't give you the right to ignore others rights or feelings. The world does not necessarily owe you special priveleges. "
jsvolka wrote on Sep 3, 2008 2:52 AM:
" As if things aren't already hard enough for those who are disabled y'all would like to add in more heartache, hassle, cost, etc... To get and "official" service dog waiting times are anywhere from three years to five years to never. Add in the cost of having to go to where they're training the dog for joint training sessions and a disabled person on a fixed income has very little hope of it working out. So to try and survive in this world they train their own animal to provide services to them only to find that now people want to see a license. How much would this license cost? Who would determine who gets one and who doesn't? Who's to say that one person's need is greater than another's? I don't care about how many years of medical or law school you have, that doesn't entitle you to make decisions about what I know for a fact I can and can't do. Sure there are people that abuse the system but I'd rather have that than have the system screw over the people who really need help. I hope that judge is stripped of his title and dis-barred! "
bj2circeleb wrote on Sep 3, 2008 4:39 AM:
" Many misconceptions have been written here. Firstly the ADA does not mention service animals at all. The department of Justice has written regulations to accompany the ADA that does mention Service Animals. These animals must be trained to assist with activities of daily living and the person must be so impaired that they need assistance with activities of daily living outside the home. The dog must be trained to perform these tasks, and in court they will need to provide evidence of this training along with evidence of the dogs obedience, temperament and public access skills. Further the ADA is only required to allow reasonable accommodations. I feel that an army tank would help me to get around but such a thing is not reasonable and so I do not use one!! The same exists for service dogs. As for other animals the regulations are currently being rewritten and other animals are being removed. Just having a medical condition or impairment does not make someone disabled. Even receiving disability income does not mean someone is disabled accroding to the ADA. The person must be so impaired that they required daily assistance with activities of daily living.
Remember the laws for these animals are extension of guide or seeing eye dog laws that have existed for decades. These dogs behave impeccibly in public and so should all other service dogs.
The law does not say who has to train the dog and so people think they can train their own. "
Remember the laws for these animals are extension of guide or seeing eye dog laws that have existed for decades. These dogs behave impeccibly in public and so should all other service dogs.
The law does not say who has to train the dog and so people think they can train their own. "
bj2circeleb wrote on Sep 3, 2008 4:46 AM:
" Research has shown that less than 1% of dogs have the temperament necessary to be in a public place and this is when professional and experienced trainers are working with the animals. To assume that the average person can pick such a dog and train it themselves is very very niave. On average it takes 18-24 months to train these dogs to the appropraite standard and even programs like the "seeing eye" which have specific breeding and training programs from birth are still lucky if 40% of the dogs make the grade. Not all dogs can do this work and they should not be forced to. Just because a dog makes you feel better does not make it a service dog. If in doubt ring the ADA hotline.
As a disabled person with a service dog I am more than willing and would love to have a mandatory registration and testing system for these dogs. It would help to protect my dog from out of control dogs which we should not have to face in the grocery store!! I got my dog from a program as I am not a dog trainer and cannot train a dog myself, and she is always clearly identified. I would never take my dog out without a vest on as I want to give her the respect she deserves. I am always willing to answer questions about the tasks which my dog performs and which I am legally required to be able to answer. "
As a disabled person with a service dog I am more than willing and would love to have a mandatory registration and testing system for these dogs. It would help to protect my dog from out of control dogs which we should not have to face in the grocery store!! I got my dog from a program as I am not a dog trainer and cannot train a dog myself, and she is always clearly identified. I would never take my dog out without a vest on as I want to give her the respect she deserves. I am always willing to answer questions about the tasks which my dog performs and which I am legally required to be able to answer. "
AnotherLameOpinion wrote on Sep 3, 2008 4:50 AM:
" To cronicpain, you keep shouting the fact that no one here is a lawer as if only lawers are capable of common sense. I don't need a lawer to tell me whats ridiculous. Just because a lawyer can make a case for it, doesn't mean there is a lick of common sense in bringing a horse or a bird or a snake or a gerbil into a restaurant. Common sense would tell most people that this could become a bit of a health issue. Sorry, I don't need a lawyer to tell me that. Wake up and use a little common sense people. Lawyers aren't God, they're people who argue for money!!! Just because they're good at argueing doesn't make them right!!! This country is too full of lawyers and whiners who are allowed to sue with said lawyers. "
cynic954 wrote on Sep 3, 2008 5:47 AM:
" bert snake is quite tasty so are cockatoos and cockatiels. Monkey on the other hand is like chewing a mouthfull of rubberbands and is very gamey. This I know first hand from working with indigenous troops in southeast asia for three years. And yes I do need to quit eating in kelso. "
roudy russ wrote on Sep 3, 2008 5:51 AM:
" Cronicpain, I pasted this off YOUR first comment."I have "Cockatoo" a large bird who i feel is a SERVICE animale also. some people just have no idea what " Service Animal " means. and this from your last, first of all I never said I my cockatoo IS A SERVICE animal. Mabey you should read your prior blogs! "
bert wrote on Sep 3, 2008 8:14 AM:
" Does no one understand that there is NO designation, classification or special protection for "companion animal"? There is No such thing, according to the ADA Title III as a companion animal. I will give ten dollars to the first person that points out to me the section concerning companion animals. "
realityshowgirl wrote on Sep 3, 2008 11:12 AM:
" I am a friend of Moran and know that she would be totally lost without Hoss.
I don't think any of you have a right to judge someone with a disablity, unless you know what they go through on a constant basis. "
I don't think any of you have a right to judge someone with a disablity, unless you know what they go through on a constant basis. "
bert wrote on Sep 3, 2008 12:53 PM:
" Realityshowgirl: You may know Moran and she may be lost without Hoss. That does not however automatically make Hoss a service animal with the rights, responsibilities and duties of a service animal as defined in the ADA Title III. I am sincerely sorry that Moran lives in pain. My fiance is medically diagnosed as disabled and has the parking permit to verify that she is disabled. We own two dogs that we love and would be lost without. We don't try to claim that our dogs are service animals even though they are a large part of our life and we would be lost without them. "
loudly wrote on Sep 3, 2008 2:02 PM:
" If anyone wants to change the ADA then contact your local lawmaker. Making noise on the TDN board isn't going to solve anything. Once again, the subject of the article has nothing to do with service animals (or types of animals) but rather untrained (and stinky) "pets" that are passed off as service animals. The subjects of this article seem to find joy in throwing the ADA into the face of anyone who questions their use of these untrained/unskilled PETS. In their insistance on claiming their mongrels as "service dogs" they unwittingly make a mockery of the REAL training that REAL service dogs and handlers undertake. "
pilaf wrote on Sep 3, 2008 2:50 PM:
" bj2circeleb:
I really enjoyed reading your posts, and I hope your dog has a long and happy life with you. I agree that few dogs are able to do this work, and should not be forced to. I also have concerns about dogs being injured if they are used as service dogs inappropriately. A dog could be injured if it was being used to pull someone's weight wearing only a standard collar and leash instead of the proper type of harness for the job. (I am not targeting anyone in particular here)Some dogs would be seriously stressed by the responsibilities involved even if they are the nicest dog in the world and love their owners as only a dog can! "
I really enjoyed reading your posts, and I hope your dog has a long and happy life with you. I agree that few dogs are able to do this work, and should not be forced to. I also have concerns about dogs being injured if they are used as service dogs inappropriately. A dog could be injured if it was being used to pull someone's weight wearing only a standard collar and leash instead of the proper type of harness for the job. (I am not targeting anyone in particular here)Some dogs would be seriously stressed by the responsibilities involved even if they are the nicest dog in the world and love their owners as only a dog can! "
Irina wrote on Sep 3, 2008 2:58 PM:
" I would invite everyone to visit this Hoquiam, Wa, website and then continue the discussion. There is information there about the ADA and about registration of service dogs.
http://registeredservicedogs.com/index.php "
http://registeredservicedogs.com/index.php "
bert wrote on Sep 3, 2008 5:01 PM:
" Irina: My question to you is, are you affiliated in some way with this business. I read through the material and no where does it require verification that the dog/animal meets ADA TitleIII that the service animal be "individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability". So for $19.95, plus $1.50 shipping and handling, you get a piece of paper that is not worth the ink on it since it is not from any organization that has been accredited or recognized by any government agency or any other organization. A wallet card that is as useful as the paper certificate. Plus you get a patch. My opinion is that this is just a company that is preying on the already weak an vulnerable. I hope that there is nobody gullible enough to put out the $21.45 for the worthless and meaningless $.50 worth of products. "
Irina wrote on Sep 3, 2008 6:54 PM:
" bert,
No, I am not affiliated with any organization. I am speaking as a private person with permanent and total disability who has had a very hard time in public with my service dog. Disability is not fun. I lost my health, my profession and my place in the community. In their place I got constant pain (physical) and constant hassle from people who do not know the facts. I do not want the attention of others when I go out. I want to be left respectfully alone to go about my business. I do not want to answer any questions, or to meet social needs of others. Peoples hearts are good but the attention brings unwanted consequences: I am quickly exhausted and have to go home before I accomplish my tasks. I am all for registering dogs who have been highly trained (2 years of constant training, and a grant of up to $30,000 to pay for the training. These animals are donated to people with full disability who have need verified by a physician, usually a specialist. The dogs are highly trained and pass field trials and public trials with handlers before they are donated to a carefully chosen individual.
Service animals wear Service Dog vests, and misrepresentation carries legal consequences. "
No, I am not affiliated with any organization. I am speaking as a private person with permanent and total disability who has had a very hard time in public with my service dog. Disability is not fun. I lost my health, my profession and my place in the community. In their place I got constant pain (physical) and constant hassle from people who do not know the facts. I do not want the attention of others when I go out. I want to be left respectfully alone to go about my business. I do not want to answer any questions, or to meet social needs of others. Peoples hearts are good but the attention brings unwanted consequences: I am quickly exhausted and have to go home before I accomplish my tasks. I am all for registering dogs who have been highly trained (2 years of constant training, and a grant of up to $30,000 to pay for the training. These animals are donated to people with full disability who have need verified by a physician, usually a specialist. The dogs are highly trained and pass field trials and public trials with handlers before they are donated to a carefully chosen individual.
Service animals wear Service Dog vests, and misrepresentation carries legal consequences. "
bert wrote on Sep 3, 2008 7:38 PM:
" Irina: If I offended you I truly apologize. It is just that as I read the material on the site you recommended it was extremely obvious to me that it was scam. I would never intrude upon you or your privacy. My Mother taught me better. I may however ask you if I can be of assistance. But again that is just the manners my Mother taught me. As you have read the entries here, as I assume you have, does it upset you that people use, abuse and twist this and other programs that are meant to provide some measure of independence and dignity. Not only do they use the resources that are available but they cause everyone to look at the programs with a jaundiced eye along with those that use the programs. I know it makes me mad.. "
bj2circeleb wrote on Sep 4, 2008 4:11 AM:
" Irina the site you are talking about is an absolute joke. I know of at least 3 such similar sights. All certify dogs totally unseen, without any evidence of any training or even knowing if the person has a doctors certificate. If you want an ID card to enter places, firstly if the dog came from a program they would have provided one with the dog, and if not you can easily make your own, and have it laminated at wallmart or the like. By supporting these poeople all you are doing is to encourage people to break the law. I know of at least two websites on the net, totally seperate from these where people are encouraged to register their dogs on these sites, buy a cape on Ebay and then they can take their dog on board aircraft for free. As a result of groups like the one you mentioned airlines now have a right to ask for medical documentation before allowing any dog on board. These places are actually going to make your life more difficult not easier. These people are in it for the money and not for any other reason. All they need is 2 or 3 people to sign up a day and they have an easy 60 dollars that day for what will equate to about $1 fo cost for them. "
bj2circeleb wrote on Sep 4, 2008 4:20 AM:
" irian if places such as the one you mentioned were really about helping the disable instead of themsleves then they would be advocating to the DOJ to bring in compulsory registraiton and testing of all such dogs which most countries in the world are doing. It is because of people dragging around ill behaved and untrained pets and saying that it breaches their rights to not have them with them, and that they claim their dogs are highly trained, etc that the DOJ will not consider such a thing. At present the US is becoming the laughing stock of the world in terms of service animals, we even had the pig on the airplane!!
The reality is that access is becoming harder on a daily basis because of this sort of thing. Just ask any long term guide dog user and they will tell you that 20 years ago they were lucky to have one access dispute a year. Now they have one almost every week. The only reason is because of ill behaved and untrained pets who are dirty and a health hazard being taken into public places.
The last court case I read about a woman when asked about the animals training, produced the ID cards from 3 of these registers. When the court looked into them they laughed. She could not provide any other evidence at all for any form of training for the dog. I know personally that one such place is currenlty being investigated by the DOJ "
The reality is that access is becoming harder on a daily basis because of this sort of thing. Just ask any long term guide dog user and they will tell you that 20 years ago they were lucky to have one access dispute a year. Now they have one almost every week. The only reason is because of ill behaved and untrained pets who are dirty and a health hazard being taken into public places.
The last court case I read about a woman when asked about the animals training, produced the ID cards from 3 of these registers. When the court looked into them they laughed. She could not provide any other evidence at all for any form of training for the dog. I know personally that one such place is currenlty being investigated by the DOJ "
bj2circeleb wrote on Sep 4, 2008 4:27 AM:
" In terms of comfort animals and the like. The law does allow Emotional Support Animals to live in no pets housing on the advice of a doctor, if a person is elderly, has a mental illness or the like and would benefit from the company and companionship of a pet. These animals however do not have public access rights. They do have a right to live in no pets housing, but the landlord can ask for a pet deposit and they can be asked to remove the animal if it causes any form of disturbance, ie. by barking. Like the service dog requirements it is based on a reasonable accommodation. If the person already has a large dog and it appears to have basic training then it owuld usually have to be accommodated, but if not the landlord could have some say over teh size, breed, etc.
What is happening a lot though is that people are taking doctors letters for such things with them to shops and showing them as a way of taking their dog everywhere with them. This is not legal, and they are in many cases breaking the law. Many states actually have stiff penalities in place for faking a service dog, but most places are scared of law suits and not well versed on the law.
If the DOJ bought in real minimum standards and testing and certification then the current access disputes that people including myself with real service dogs are facing would end. "
What is happening a lot though is that people are taking doctors letters for such things with them to shops and showing them as a way of taking their dog everywhere with them. This is not legal, and they are in many cases breaking the law. Many states actually have stiff penalities in place for faking a service dog, but most places are scared of law suits and not well versed on the law.
If the DOJ bought in real minimum standards and testing and certification then the current access disputes that people including myself with real service dogs are facing would end. "
lovnlife wrote on Sep 4, 2008 10:59 AM:
" I am a diabetic that requires 4 shots of insulin a day. I work full time and do not consider myself disabled even though the doctors say that I can be. I have 2 dogs and 1 cat, one of my dogs will alert me when my blood sugar goes up. She isn't a trained service animal and I don't take her with me. I do feel like she is a service to me as it has been repeated many time that she has alerted me and my sugar levels were in the 500's. Not all animals can be classified as a service animal. If you need your animal to be with you at least be respectful of others and keep them CLEAN. "
98626 wrote on Sep 6, 2008 7:34 AM:
" Why was the judge allowed to have his pet in the court room. His training of dogs is on his personal time. The judge is not blind and does not need the dog to perform his job on the bench. It seems the judge has a violation himself... "
pilaf wrote on Sep 6, 2008 11:22 AM:
" 98626: The judge's dog that was in the courtroom that day is not a pet. It was a guide dog in training. These dogs are fostered by volunteer families and undergo preliminary training which involves, among other things, being exposed to many different types of daily environments (ie stores, noisy roads, airports, nursing homes etc.) to make sure they will be able to adapt calmly to any situation the disabled person would encounter. "
Former Res wrote on Sep 6, 2008 3:52 PM:
" jsvolka made a good point to me...if you are really disabled, I'm sure you will get help to pay for a certified trained service animal. I'd really like to see a blind person train their own seeing eye dog - just wouldn't work. Now, a wheelchaired person is a different story. How about the state have a test for the pet to pass for those who cannot afford them and still need the service animal. I really, really want to know what a "service" cockatoo provides that the individual cannot do for themselves. I don't think making you happy is one of them because, guess what, no matter what anyone says, you can make yourself happy! Our animals just make life HAPPIER! "
Former Res wrote on Sep 6, 2008 3:55 PM:
" To Lovnlife - I love your viewpoint. Your dog is very special to keep you safe. There are dogs that alert to seizures - great service dogs! "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 7, 2008 12:33 AM:
" pilaf;let's be honest here, the judge takes that dog from chambers to the bench, and has been doing it for some time now. It's not like he's running to the store, or running here or there so that the dog is in different venues all the time. Let's go for the big question; why did the judge ask the commissioners to write a policy banning service dogs that aren't certified, from county buildings to start off with? is he above Federal Law? is the ADA not good enough for him? when I first went to a comissioner about this (because I went to 2 out of 3)all I heard about was a monkey that was disturbing court proceedins, and that the judge was tring to find a way to control that problem. Not a thing was said about the way Ms Browns dog smelled - I've been next to her dog, and it smells like.....dog. I told that commissioner then, that the ADA Laws states that they can ask you to remove an animal that is causing a problem, it also states that you can NOT hold some ones animal responsible for what some one else's animal does. The judge knows these laws. So HE wants to be the person "that draws the line" like he said. Or are you going to tell me that a man , who fosters and trains dogs for the blind, doesn't know the ADA. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 7, 2008 1:47 AM:
" To those of you who keep saying that the state should have some kind of test. We're talking about the Americans with Disabilities Act, this is the same act that made buildings wheelchair acc., bathroom stalls, etc... nothing has changed, it's all the same ACT. The ADA. You sound like it's something that they just came up with. I didn't grow up and think "i want to be disabilied when I growup" and I'm having a hard time getting used to the fact that I am. I don't like the fact that I have to ask for help to do some of the easiest things or that when I squat down to get something wondering if I'll be abel to get back up. I don't always park my car in the handicapped zone and I don't always use my dog, It depends on how I feel that day. But it's nice to know that I have a helper if I need him. So that if I drop my keys, instead of asking some one to pick them up for me and then dropping them a 2nd time(which I alway seem to do), I can have Hoss get them for me. That's just one of MANY things that he does for me. I also feel that my dog is well trained. I have worked for 2 veternarians and a county humane society, much bigger than Cowlitz County's. My family has also put a lot of time into his training. "
One Man's Land wrote on Sep 7, 2008 8:31 AM:
" I carry a copy of the ADA Law in my purse; it would behove you all to read it carefully! No one can ask what your disability is and what the dog is trained to do. It does not require the dog to wear a thing. The county needs to get up to speed.
Washington State is an ADA State. "
Washington State is an ADA State. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 7, 2008 2:09 PM:
" Thank-You, one man's land and all the rest of you that have stood up for Melanie and Myself through this mess! To the rest of you, there may come a time when you, or someone you love, may need these laws(ADA)!! Are you just going to pick the ones that you like and then toss the others to the side? or what if you find that a dog, you trained, can help you with the everyday things that you can't do anymore,(which is what happened to me)are you going to use that help or ignore it? Trust me, your going to use it, just like you would a cane! Do you want to know why? Because when you live in pain every minute of everyday and the only thing that is different is what LEVEL of pain you are in, you will do ANYTHING not to hurt as much as you do.ANYTHING!!! Welcome to MY WORLD!!Not a minute of my life goes by pain-free anymore. And why would any of you want the county to be able to take away ANY of YOUR FEDERAL RIGHTS!!! "
pilaf wrote on Sep 8, 2008 8:19 AM:
" dawnornot, not sure why you are mad at me...I think Hoss does meet the definition of a service animal from the description. I don't think any old monkey, chihuahua in a purse, snake or bird meets the description just because someone says so, and then claims they can't be questioned about their animals skills. This makes a mockery of the great job real service animals do perform for the truly disabled. How would you weed out the fakers? Or is it just the honor system? I resent your assumtion that I am against the ADA and somehow hostile to disabled people and dogs just because I think there should be a way to make the process easier for the truly disabled, and harder for the fakers. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 9:55 AM:
" I'm not mad at you! I'm upset with the way you were so quick to defend judge Warning. Yes, the fact that he raises these dogs is to be commended, it's not an easy thing to do. But I also feel that he take advantange of the process and his title at the same time. These dogs (as you stated) are to be exposed to MANY different types of environments. The judge, as I said earlier, goes from chambers to bench through his day. Maybe a couple of other places, but that's it. Everything he has control over. How can you be TRAINING this dog, if he's sleeping at your feet all day? If I'm at home, my dog will follow me from room to room, to the barn, to the mailbox, etc...I don't see this as Training. I see it as Being Home, which is where I feel his dog should be. I feel that dog is very,VERY used to being in an office environment and it's time to move on. So, to me, he's just using his position. Then there's the fact that he wants the commission to write a policy changing the Federal Law. Come on now!! I didn't assume anything about you! I stated the questions and feelings that I have about a judge that you happen to stand up for, and he actually made fun of a disabiled woman and her dog. What right does he have to do that? "
Kaijakoira wrote on Sep 8, 2008 10:22 AM:
" Thanks to a few selfish fakers who take advantage of current ADA laws, people with legitimate disabilities will eventually lose their right to privacy. We can only hope they don't completely lose the right to have their service animals in public-- which would keep THEM from going out in public without relying on another person, significantly diminishing their independence & dignity. As an animal lover & pet owner with a dog who alerts me to oncoming migraines, I would love to take my dogs (who are well socialized & obedience trained, as all pet dogs should be) with me everywhere I go. However, my ability to shop & conduct other business in public does NOT depend on them, so they stay home. If I want to take them into a store with me, we go to Petco on another pet store that welcomes dogs. (I did have to tell my German Shepherdess that she can't have her own credit card, though....) "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 10:29 AM:
" He has no right what so ever!! But everyone who read the paper believed him,why? Because he's a judge! That's a very powerful position, isn't it? I went to both Kathleen Johnson and Axel Swanson after being thrown out of the fair. Both of them had told me that the judge had asked for this policy and why. Not a single thing was ever said about Melanie Brown's dog or the way it smelled. Neither one said "We had this woman, who had this dog, and it smelled ssoooo bbbaaaaddddd!!!!!", but they told me all about the monkey, and all about the bird. Judge Warning pulled that out just for the paper. He doesn't want to look bad. But, he abuse his power, and he know's it. And then, he had the commissioners break the law for him too. I know that there's alot of people out there with dogs in there purses and stuff. What do you do when you see them? I myself stop them and ask them what their dog does for them? (I've even found myself staring them right out of the store-they know that they're in the wrong) if I find that they "just didn't want to leave them in the car by themselves" I call managment. Those people need to be told to leave and that what they're doing is against the law. I've even caught people out in the parking lot, and got up on my soap box. "
Kaijakoira wrote on Sep 8, 2008 10:39 AM:
" What happens when an untrained, uncontrolled pet dog decides to interfere with a genuine service dog in "on duty" mode? It doesn't matter if your pet dog is "friendly" or not; ANY form of interaction, even going over to exchange a few friendly bum-sniffs (considered a polite greeting in canine society), can undo months & years of intense, expensive training & destroy a service dog's ability to serve. Is having Fifi with you in the grocery store really more important than protecting the independence, freedom & dignity of people with disabilities? "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 11:18 AM:
" Telling them that they are breaking the law, and that only real service dogs are allowed in a store (or where ever)and if they are going in that I will turn them into the store or call the police. If they are leaving, I write down their plate number down and act like I'm calling it in(that will make them nearvous for the rest of the day). Because it is not only against the law to take the animal in the store, it's against the law to claim to be disabiled also (I've found that the best part is when I've said "Hope you don't have any warrants out against you?"). I do keep the plate numbers through (who knows-someday someone might do something about it). When Hoss was a puppy I took him to Wal-mart (7 weeks old). I wanted to get him an ID tag, the machine is near the front door. I was told "NO!". That was 5 years ago. Today you see dogs in Wal-mart all of the time, and they're not service dogs, they're purse dogs. I confront more people there than any other place in town. If you want to stop the fakers; become a part-time advocate. Do what I do. Stop the person. The first time you catch a faker and do something about it...that feeling you get will make you want to do it again. Knowing that you've done the right thing! If everyone did this, we wouldn't have fakers! "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 11:43 AM:
" Sorry Kaijakoira, my soap box was sacked up there pretty high, and I didn't see you. I was repling to a comment made earlier. So if my next blog seems out of whack...But I think I made a point in that one about this. Stores are afriad to say the wrong thing to the wrong person, and I don't blame them. Customers w/pocket dogs as I call them, will talk to other customers, but lie to employees. So it's hard for a employee to tell (they can't follow them around) if they're telling them the truth or not. If you really want to stop something you have to get involved. If all of the people that complain about pocket dogs confronted them (the people), the problem wouldn't be half as bad. "
bert wrote on Sep 8, 2008 11:51 AM:
" Dawnornot: " I know that there's alot of people out there with dogs in there purses and stuff. What do you do when you see them? I myself stop them and ask them what their dog does for them?" Gee isn't that a violation of the ADA? "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 1:07 PM:
" First you have to act stupid! "OH,that a cute little dog you got there! what kind of dog is it?" most of the time the person will tell you what kind of breed it is. But your building a trust. Then you can talk to them about there dog for a few more minutes if you wish. then say something like "I thought that you couldn't bring dogs into the store?". Most times, because you've taken a minute or two to build a relationship they will say "I didn't what to leave him in my car!" (that's what I hear most of the time) or "It's a puppy and I didn't want to leave it at home by it's self!". If the person is disabiled they will tell you. I'm not real sure about the laws for theraphy dogs though. I do know that they are different than service dogs, and do not have the same rights. But to those people, I don't say anything. I feel that a Doc. has prescribed that dog, and it is not my right to question. I go after the people that bring their dog in because..... I have found that if you B.S. with someone long enough, that they trust you and are caught off guard when asked the right questions. Bert.... Thanks for asking!!!! "
pilaf wrote on Sep 8, 2008 1:28 PM:
" Huh? I didn't "stand up" for the judge, I just said the dog that was there behind the bench was a guide dog in training not just a "pet". "
bert wrote on Sep 8, 2008 2:20 PM:
" Dawnornot: So if I am reading right you are saying it is OK to ask about what function the animal performs as long as you are dishonest, sneaky and covert. I missed that in the ADA Title III when I read the section regarding service animals. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 2:45 PM:
" Sorry pilaf, it sounded as if you were defending the judge, and that dog has had enough office experience. Your right, Hoss does meet the definition of a service dog. But he's still in training, and will always be. We teach him new things all of the time. That day, we were working with being around alot of little yappy dogs (something very new to him). I don't use the term 'in training'. He knows how to do the things that I need, he does them all the time. Some places are just a little different. We just taught him how to find cell phones, because we saw it on TV(guys sneek them into prisons,and they use dogs to sniff them out). It doesn't matter if it has to do with helping me or not. HE LOVES TO LEARN, and if that's what he want's, we're willing to teach him. To him it's a game,a big hug, a "that a good boy!", an extra cookie, a game!!!! "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 2:58 PM:
" Oh Bert, for a minute I actually thought that you were tring to help, and not make my fur stand up!!! I was wrong !! That's not what I said, and you know it!! I'm talking about approaching people that you know don't need to have there dogs in the store. You must sit there all day long looking for someone to get all worked up! Your not wasting my time!! I thing I hear Betsy calling you!!!! "
bert wrote on Sep 8, 2008 3:56 PM:
" Dawnornot: So you are saying that you are some how gifted with the ability to tell if someone is disabled and they legitimately need a service animal. Maybe Judge Stephen Warning feels he is also gift with this sight. My understanding of training a service animal for originations such as Seeing Eyes for the Blind is socialization and temperament. Bring a dog in training into the work place would qualify as part of the training. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 8, 2008 4:48 PM:
" What I'm saying is that people do a lot of things, just because they can. I know this, and you know this. And your right, the work place is a part of training......is that what you want to hear??? Maybe, there's a lot more to this than YOU know!!! have you thought about that, or did that slip past you. OH, and I'm sure that Judge Stephen Warning feels a lot of things! "
tdnreader wrote on Sep 8, 2008 8:18 PM:
" FYI...A service animal in training does not qualify under the ADA as a service animal and is not allowed in public buildings, PERIOD! Even with the cute little vest! In spite of all the comments and opinions the ADA is a black and white law and not an opinion that can be changed because someone does not like it or does not agree with it. It is the law as it stands at this time. You have to obey the law even if you don't like it. Therefore, if you disagree with the law you have one simnple solution at your disposal. Go through proper channels and change it! Otherwise abide by the law and understand that your opinion of the law does not change it. "
98626 wrote on Sep 9, 2008 5:06 AM:
" tdnreader: How can the judge rule on this case while violating the law himself? Something is not right here. Is this judge, our county official above the law himself? Makes ya wonder... "
One Mans Land wrote on Sep 9, 2008 8:22 AM:
" For over 100 years the Library of the City of Tacoma allowed only seeing eye dogs into the library. Several months ago I visited the library and the guards were very rude and tried to push me out of the library. Fortunately I got to speak to the librarian and she read my copy of the ADA. My service dog was allowed in and she changed the library's point of view. Just think of the number of disabled are now allow to enjoy the library! I am so happy about that! "
bert wrote on Sep 9, 2008 9:18 AM:
" Dawnornot: According to your own statement," What I'm saying is that people do a lot of things, just because they can. I know this, and you know this." Therein lies the problem. How do we distinguish between those that do it just because they can and those that are legitimately using the program? Especially when the act is so vaguely written. "III-4.2300 Service animals. A public accommodation must modify its policies to permit the use of a service animal by an individual with a disability, unless doing so would result in a fundamental alteration or jeopardize the safe operation of the public accommodation.
Service animals include any animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability. Tasks typically performed by service animals include guiding people with impaired vision, alerting individuals with impaired hearing to the presence of intruders or sounds, providing minimal protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, or retrieving dropped items.
The care or supervision of a service animal is the responsibility of his or her owner, not the public accommodation. A public accommodation may not require an individual with a disability to post a deposit as a condition to permitting a service animal to accompany its owner in a place of public accommodation, even if such deposits are required for pets.
ILLUSTRATION: An individual who is blind wishes to be accompanied in a restaurant by her guide dog. The restaurant must permit the guide dog to accompany its owner in all areas of the restaurant open to other patrons and may not insist that the dog be separated from her.
A number of States have programs to certify service animals. A private entity, however, may not insist on proof of State certification before permitting the entry of a service animal to a place of public accommodation." So we are not allowed, as you know, the legitimacy of the animal. "
Service animals include any animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability. Tasks typically performed by service animals include guiding people with impaired vision, alerting individuals with impaired hearing to the presence of intruders or sounds, providing minimal protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, or retrieving dropped items.
The care or supervision of a service animal is the responsibility of his or her owner, not the public accommodation. A public accommodation may not require an individual with a disability to post a deposit as a condition to permitting a service animal to accompany its owner in a place of public accommodation, even if such deposits are required for pets.
ILLUSTRATION: An individual who is blind wishes to be accompanied in a restaurant by her guide dog. The restaurant must permit the guide dog to accompany its owner in all areas of the restaurant open to other patrons and may not insist that the dog be separated from her.
A number of States have programs to certify service animals. A private entity, however, may not insist on proof of State certification before permitting the entry of a service animal to a place of public accommodation." So we are not allowed, as you know, the legitimacy of the animal. "
bert wrote on Sep 9, 2008 10:13 AM:
" So as I have tried educate myself on the issue of "Service Animals" I ran across a very funny and obvious abuse of ADA Title III. If you need a good laugh go to http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_11_15/ai_71627521/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1 and read about the 250-300 pound pig allowed to fly in First Class of USA Airways in an attempt to comply with ADA Title III. While it is funny I know that if I had paid a premium price to fly First Class I would have demanded a refund. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 9, 2008 11:18 AM:
" This is what I've been trying to say!! Judge Stephen Warning is in a position of power and resepect. The people that have read this article (not on-line)will believe him, just because he's a judge. They will not know that HE asked the commission to write a policy changing the way a FEDERAL LAW reads! Who is he to change a FEDERAL LAW?? The Judge also pointed out, that the ADA allow's a bussiness to remove a service animal that's being disruptive. DISRUPT: to interrupt or cause to cease ENTIRELY. That means a complete stop. That doesn't mean that if you don't like the smell of something. A lot of these blogs have gone way past what is actually happening here! One friend told me not to read them , because it would just make me mad-and she was right! Some of you act like this is a BIG JOKE! "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 9, 2008 11:42 AM:
" bert; OK,I see where your coming from. But, can you see it from my side also? I'm not going to say that some of them aren't WAY out there, but that not what I'm taking about. My dog is 80 lbs., well mannered, smart, and clean. You can meet him anytime(just tell me when and where)! I would never use an animal, other than a dog, as a service animal! Maybe at home, but never in public. I felt very strange the first few times that I used Hoss in a public venue! It was one thing taking him to work were you know everybody, it felt a lot different taking him to a store. "
bert wrote on Sep 9, 2008 12:32 PM:
" dawnornot: First let me apologize to you for mistaking you as Melanie Brown. I do understand where you are coming from and sympathize with your conundrum. But you also need to understand where I and others are coming from on this issue. There are so many people that abuse the system that it calls into question everyone who use services animals. These posers that misuse this and other programs make it harder on you and make the rest of us upset. If there were not these abusers then the public in general would be able to accept on face value the use of these programs. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 9, 2008 1:58 PM:
" I am the "Dawn Moran" that this article writes about. Your right, there are A LOT of people who abuse this program, just like lots of other programs(we all know which ones I'm talking about). You know what I've found? the same people using this program, are the same people using the other program-if you know what I mean! I confront the people with pocket dogs every chance I get. They do make it harder for me. What I'm mad about, and to me what the article is about, is that the county decided to change a Federal Law on the request of a Judge Warning! Now, all of a sudden, Cowlitz County is more powerful than the Federal Govenment? Why don't you just say that the Mayor is more powerful than the President? "
bert wrote on Sep 9, 2008 3:42 PM:
" Since we are having this discussion on the incorrectness of Cowlitz County administering of the rights of the disabled to be accompanied by a service animal I decided to read the code, policy or resolution approved by the County Commissioners. The Web is a wonderful tool for researching. I did find where resolution 08-076 was passed on July 8, 2008 by the commissioners. But I can not find a copy of that resolution. If anyone knows where to locate the text for this resolution on the web I would appreciate that information. We can't have an informed discussion without knowing the wording of this resolution. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 9, 2008 5:07 PM:
" Now why doesn't that suprise me!!(LOL) It just so happens, I have a copy of that policy! and I would be more than happy to send it to anyone who wants it! (she wrote with a smile on her face). Send me your address, I'm @hotmail.com (same name) and I'll send it right to you!!!!It doesn't bother me if you don't agree with me, that's your right. But as I said in the first blog that I posted, Please make your comments informed ones. "
cronicpain wrote on Sep 10, 2008 12:16 AM:
" Resolution No. 08-076 adopting "Animals Restricted in County Buildings Policy" -
Commissioner Raiter noted animals are not normally allowed in buildings unless they are service
animals. The policy now allows security to restrict. Commissioner Swanson moved to approve
the policy. The motion carried. "
Commissioner Raiter noted animals are not normally allowed in buildings unless they are service
animals. The policy now allows security to restrict. Commissioner Swanson moved to approve
the policy. The motion carried. "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 10, 2008 10:37 AM:
" cronicpain; I'm glad to see that you have been either keeping up with this or that you are back! either way, It's nice to hear from you. I haven't checked to see if the commission has this policy posted on-line (I should), if they don't - I know why! But, I have a copy of it, sealed, w/they're little stamp of aproval. "
anotion wrote on Sep 10, 2008 1:09 PM:
" Our society is filled with hypochondriacs. If it weren't, this article probobly wouldn't even have been written. A service dog for a blind person is the only justified animial I see as being allowed in any building or business. I'm sure it wouldn't be questioned when the blind needed to bring their dogs into a business or whatever. But we've got all of these others who insist that they've got all of these ailments, viruses, disabilities and on and on and on. I know there are plenty of people who truly are unfortunate in this way, but it just makes me sick anymore to see the people who could be perfectly healthy if they would only put forth a small effort. Key word EFFORT. In this day and age, if you're over weight and have a problem carrying your weight, don't exercise just get a wheel chair. An electric one even. Hmm, I wonder why health care is breaking everyones pocket book? Oh, and by the way. I've broke my back...5 vertebre, multiple fractures. Yes, my back still hurts at times but I keep the pain away by staying healthy, exercising, and making sure I have a solid core strength. Mrs. Brown is sueing for $730,000!!!!? Are you kidding me!? Mrs. Sue Happy, why don't you go burn yourself with some hot coffee. You'll have a better chance at that money you're after. "
anotion wrote on Sep 10, 2008 1:14 PM:
" It sounds like this dog of Mrs. Browns has more possibility of hurting her back by 'pulling her around' than helping her. Wait! Nevermind, I'm going to change my stance on this. I've got back problems too. So that means I can bring my dog anywhere and everywhere with me. Cool! I'm gonna go buy an English Mastiff because the bigger the better right? He'll be my savior in case anything bad happens to me. There are also many people who are on medical marijuana because of back pain. Heck, I'll cash in on that too. Bonus! "
dawnornot wrote on Sep 10, 2008 9:55 PM:
" anotion; have you ever seen a person with a debilitating illness? a service dog can open a whole new world for that person, and MOST of THOSE PEOPLE are in WHEELCHAIRS!!! Maybe you should do some research on the subject!!! "
tdnreader wrote on Sep 15, 2008 7:03 AM:
" I am happy to see this dialogue continue! Wow, Cowlitz County has been in the dark ages regarding the ADA for years! Good work people! Like I said before. The law is the law and even Judge Warning (especially Judge Warning) should be aware of the law and enforce it as it stands at this time. If people disagree with the law, change it. I agree that the law is very vaguely and poorly written. As American citizens, though you have the right and the ability to fight for reforms in the law. DSo you want all service animals to be certified? Then work at changing the law! I know that it is easier to bellyache about it than to work to change it. If you are not willing to work toward changing it then shut up and live with it! Pretty simple really. "
crowsfeet wrote on Sep 16, 2008 4:24 PM:
" Disability replaced welfare. When they tightened the strings on the sick lame and lazy everybody suddenly became disabled and needed to go on social security. "
tdnreader wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:01 AM:
" It is true that some people abuse the system. Not everyone on Social Security is doing that though. Some people die waiting to get Social Security because of the fraud. They lose everything while they fight to get what they need just to survive. A society that worries so much about the few who might defraud the government while the derserving die waiting has to examine what is wrong with the system. "
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