Ethanol rush may be doing more harm than good
Monday, June 23, 2008 1:16 AM PDT
Printable version
E-mail this articleJune 23 Daily News editorial
Are those lawmakers in Washington and Oregon who fought successfully for ethanol mandates in the two states having second thoughts? They ought to be. A growing number of officials and industry leaders in other states are rethinking the popular wisdom that led to laws aimed at speeding the development of ethanol and other biofuels.
The unintended consequences of so-called “food-to-fuel” mandates are mounting. On Thursday, leaders in agricultural economics, the environmental movement and the food industry urged the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to take a second look at biofuels mandates in light of rising cost of food and gasoline.
The diversion of corn to fuel is having a dramatic impact on food prices, straining the family budgets of working Americans and sparking food riots in Haiti and other impoverished parts of the world. It’s leading to higher feed costs for the cattle and poultry industries. It’s driving up the price of eggs, milk, bread and other staples. Mandating more ethanol clearly is doing nothing to hold down gasoline prices, which are climbing toward $5 per gallon in many parts of the country.
Additionally, there is cause for concern about the mandates' effect on the environment. Richard Wiles, executive director of the Environmental Working Group, said, “This year’s 9 billion gallon (federal ethanol mandate) will cause an estimated 100 million tons of soil erosion and put 300,000 tons of nitrogen fertilizer into Midwestern waters. Thanks largely to the ethanol mandate and an excessively wet spring,” Wiles continued, “pollution levels in the Gulf of Mexico are expected to reach record levels, with a dead zone the size of Massachusetts.”
Consumers often pay a price when government tampers with the market-based economy in an effort to quickly advance one or another popular goal. That’s certainly been the case with biofuels mandates. Taxpayers have shelled out billions of dollars in subsidies to speed ethanol production over the years. Suspicions that they might not get value for their dollars arose at least half a dozen years ago. A 2002 Office of Management and Budget memo said President Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers and the Federal Trade Commission believed the federal ethanol mandate would prove costly for consumers and the government and would provide little environmental benefit.
It’s proved to be more costly than most could have imagined, and whatever environmental benefits the mandate brings may be canceled out by its harmful effects on the environment. Biofuels may have potential as an alternative energy source, but government would do well to let the market determine the pace of development.
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 23, 2008 8:43 AM:
" This editorial should have mentioned the role that Obama has played in supporting and promoting this cause. Non other than the Liberal Democrat journalism pillar, the mighty New York Times today published a length look at Obama's ties to this industry. This guy is a flat out liar when he says he is not tied to special interests. Many of his top advisers are directly tied to this industry which according to the NYT receives "multi-billions" in federal subsidies despite to produce products that are both inferior to producing ethanol and more damaging to the environment. Wake up America. Obama is the typical Liberal Democrat, boght and sold by Liberal Democrat special interests. Look at John McCain's stance on this and you see the stark difference. One man believes in a free economy. The other believes in one driven by corporate welfare that benefits his campaign. Which is best for America? "
El Gabilon wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:32 PM:
" There is nothing wrong with promoting ethanol as a subsiute for gasoline except for using food products to make it when switch grass and other non food grasses can be used. The use of corn or other food products should be immediately banned. The use of corn was pushed by the agriculture industry because it was seen as a bonanza for them. Not only should food products be banned in making ethanol but ALL SUBSIDIES granted to American farmers should be ended, and they should compete on a global basis. In addition growing tobacco in the US should be banned. American business wanted globalization and now they have it, they should function on a level playing field rather than having subsidies that cause starvation in other parts of the world. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 23, 2008 3:26 PM:
" El Gabilon, I agree with most of what you say. The problem is we have a candidate for president who is running doing everything you say not to. According to the New York Times today, Obama is bought and paid for by the corn-based U.S. ethanol industry which -- thanks to Obama and the Liberal Democrats -- receives "multi-billions" in tax payer subsidies. McCain, as the N.Y. Times says, is exactly the opposite and almost word for word for what you say about a free competition market. There is a lot of promise to the bio-fuels but not the food-based products. We need that land and those crops to feed this country. But the experiments with algae are highly promising. Still, we are decades away from this having any chance of removing our dependency on oil. To allow the Liberal Demoncrats like Obama to block drilling is punishing the common citizen. I'll bet it has been a long, long time since he pumped gas. Does he even know that it is heading for $5 a gallon? My guess he's only concerned with lining the pockets of his supporters, friends, and the special interest groups of Liberal Demoncrats. "
itty bitty wrote on Jun 23, 2008 4:45 PM:
" Hey TDN Bad Boy, do you work for the oil industry? Your so-called great selection for president has so many flaws and has received so much money from oil it is ridiculous. So what if Obama has money contributions from an industry that is trying to help us diversify from oil? "
1209 wrote on Jun 23, 2008 5:54 PM:
" You know that republicans/white supremacists are really scared, confused, and desperate when they are trying to convince the masses to reject the future of ethanol while they pay over $4/gallon of gasoline. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 23, 2008 10:26 PM:
" Ah two more Liberal Democrats speak up in support of their racist candidate. It's funny today' story was in the New York Times, the biggest Liberal paper in the country if not the world. It's not about accepting money from the industry. It's the corn-ethanol in particular that Obama supports and takes money from according to the NY Times. This is after he supported giving that specific side of the industry "multi-billions" in federal tax subsidies. Did you read the story? Can Liberal Demoncrats read? He's gettin money from a special interest group that is doing harm to the American environment and the economy. I guess if you are a racist Liberal Demoncrat you can support anything. Mr. McCain has been and is an honorable American. Obama lies about McCain's money. All from lobbyists according to the mouth that lies. Newsweek reports McCain's money is less than 2 percent from lobbyists. Yet Obama takes in thousands from an industry he helps give "multi-billions." That as dishonorable and dishonest as it gets. And gee, now Republicans are White Supremists for simply saying that Obama is racist for finacially supporting and being mentored by a racist minister for 20 plus years. It was Obama who finally admitted Wright's racism. America saw the racism as soon as it was introduced to Wright. Yet Obama never saw in 20 years of Sundays. What a liar and what a racist. "
1209 wrote on Jun 23, 2008 11:14 PM:
" Don't forget that mccain has admitted to cheating on his wife and using racial slurs against Asians and African Americans. His current wife is an admitted drug addict. He'll always be a member of the Keating Five. Honor? Very funny when it's used with the name maccain. "
KL55 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:42 AM:
" There are a couple facts that seem to get overlooked here.
1) very little of the corn used in ethanol production is the type of food grade corn that would make it to the dinner table anyway. 2) The part about the use of it driving beef prices up is BS, once the corn has been run through its use in the process, it is dried, & sold (with all its nutrients) as high grade feed for less money than the whole corn would have cost in the first place (sound like an old oil company stunt?).
They don't grab the corn off our dinner tables.
Unfortunatley while blaming the ethanol rush for rising food prices is a falsehood, the prices will be going up due to some very real flooding.
As for the candidates... both are flawed (badly) but Obama is such an obvious phoney that I just can't see how someone could NOT see through this guy... "
1) very little of the corn used in ethanol production is the type of food grade corn that would make it to the dinner table anyway. 2) The part about the use of it driving beef prices up is BS, once the corn has been run through its use in the process, it is dried, & sold (with all its nutrients) as high grade feed for less money than the whole corn would have cost in the first place (sound like an old oil company stunt?).
They don't grab the corn off our dinner tables.
Unfortunatley while blaming the ethanol rush for rising food prices is a falsehood, the prices will be going up due to some very real flooding.
As for the candidates... both are flawed (badly) but Obama is such an obvious phoney that I just can't see how someone could NOT see through this guy... "
sqm wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:21 AM:
" In response to KL55, You are right that there is a difference between Ethanol, and Human Corn. But one of the problems is farmers are switching from human corn, as well as other crops, to grow human corn!
The Dem's did not consider the consequences of their Ethanol Bill, before shoving it though the congress!
I am in favor of ethanol made with non-food sources "
The Dem's did not consider the consequences of their Ethanol Bill, before shoving it though the congress!
I am in favor of ethanol made with non-food sources "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:24 AM:
" Another great Liberal Democrat beacon joined the call today for the racist Obama to come clean on his ties to the corn ethanol industry and its subsidies that he supports. The Seattle Times ran an editorial today demanding that Obama distance himself. Of course, if you read Monday's front page news story in the New York Times, the nation's leading Liberal Demoncrat mouthpiece, you know that this would getting rid of several of his top advisers and returning lots of campaign cash. Not gonna happen. Obama is bought and paid for by the Liberal Demoncrat special interests. That's why he is known as the No. 1 Liberal Demoncrat in the U.S. Senate. Not the kind of man who should be in the White House. Weak on America and controlled by racists and special interest groups. "
1209 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:40 AM:
" Every fuel source has an awkward beginning. Ethanol, biodiesel, and electric fuel cells are entitled to their growing pains. We can all have our fun monday morning quarterbacking every misstep along the way. But we're all better off following Obama's example of unapologetically embracing alternative fuel sources to move us away from petroleum dependence. "
1209 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:50 AM:
" Week on America and controlled by racists and special interest groups. Sounds like mccain. Add to that - born loser. Nice job on leading us to crushing defeats in Vietnam AND Iraq. He's admittedly too ignorant do any better in tuning up ethanol. Don't forget that he graduated at the bottom of his class at Annopolis, where he had no right to be if his daddy wasn't an admiral. Loser = mccain. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 24, 2008 10:55 AM:
" Once again the Liberal Demoncrats like 1209 see nothing wrong with "multi-billions" of dollars in federal subsidies to a program, corn-based ethanol, that is damaging to our environment and our economy. If two Liberal Demoncrat mouthpieces like the NY Times and Seattle Times see the problems with him promoting this cause that puts billions of taxpayer dollars into the pockets of his campaign advisers and supporters who in turn give it to Obama then the rest of the country should see it as well. This call isn't about alternative energy sources, it's about being in good ethical standing. Go ahead attack Mr. McCain. By November, the U.S. voters will be smart enough to see through your tactics. The real Obama is going to be uncovered. His racist ties to Wright is just the beginning as are his ties to a murdering radical Liberal and a convicted felon slum lord. My gosh, you would think with this background he has been a senator for 30 years or more. No, he's done all this in less than 10 years. Can you imagine the damage he would do this country in the White House for 4 short years? He will weaken America just like Slick Willie Clinton did in opening the door to Bin Laden for 9/11. With Obama, the possibility is good it will be the radical is Iran knocking on our door with his hatred and violence. I can't wait to see the first picture of Obama and his shaking hand. "
cheney119 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:06 AM:
" 1209 you left out baby bomber. He was dropping napalm on those villagers not flowers. Then he has the unequaled gall to say bomb Iran like that's funny. The guy is just plain unqualified to be our president. Didn't the republicans learn anything from Vietnam? What about the Powell rules, just like Pottery Barn if you break it you bought it. They say Senator Obama is inexperienced. With experience like Cheney, Rumsfeld and McCain you can take experience and put it where the sun don't shine. The three are better candidates for Nuremberg than Nobel. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:40 AM:
" Cheney we learned a lot from Vietnam. 1. That Liberal Demoncrats can send 58,000 Americans to their deaths.
2. That Liberal Demoncrats did and will again create a draft that will prey on the lower income Americans while their special ones like Slick Willie Clinton will weasel out of defending their country.
3. That honorable men like Mr. McCain did their duty under orders from a Liberal Demoncrat Commander in Chief. So if you want to place blame -- look in the mirror. There is plenty of blood on the Liberal Demoncrats like you.
4. That Liberal Demoncrats like LBJ and Obama will do anything to get elected. LBJ used the Vietnam War to expand his home state -- Texas -- military interests in the way of bases and more personnel. Obama will say anything but the truth like he won't create a draft, like he won't appease Iran, like he will support Israel when the world, especially his friends in the radical Muslim corners know exactly what they will get away with -- murder -- if he's in office.
So yes Cheney we learned a lot about Vietnam and 9/11. If you want them to happen again, just elect a Liberal Demoncrat like Obama. "
2. That Liberal Demoncrats did and will again create a draft that will prey on the lower income Americans while their special ones like Slick Willie Clinton will weasel out of defending their country.
3. That honorable men like Mr. McCain did their duty under orders from a Liberal Demoncrat Commander in Chief. So if you want to place blame -- look in the mirror. There is plenty of blood on the Liberal Demoncrats like you.
4. That Liberal Demoncrats like LBJ and Obama will do anything to get elected. LBJ used the Vietnam War to expand his home state -- Texas -- military interests in the way of bases and more personnel. Obama will say anything but the truth like he won't create a draft, like he won't appease Iran, like he will support Israel when the world, especially his friends in the radical Muslim corners know exactly what they will get away with -- murder -- if he's in office.
So yes Cheney we learned a lot about Vietnam and 9/11. If you want them to happen again, just elect a Liberal Demoncrat like Obama. "
1209 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:51 AM:
" You know somebody is ignorant when they call me a liberal Democrat. I've actually voted Republican until 9/11. I just have enough sense to see that the Republicans lack the leadership to protect us from terrorism, much less send us on the path of alternative fuel efficiency. Recent polls show that there are plenty of former Republican voters, like me, who also see Obama as our man. We may be conservative. But we aren't racist. And we definitely know talent when we see it. We've already had the Reagan Democrats. Consider this the age of the Obama Republicans. "
wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:22 PM:
" Incredible how fear can provoke a white supremacist to ramble over an article that's supposed to be about ethanol. Relax. Obama's only going to be President Of The United States. It's not like he's going to marry your daughter. "
SM wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:45 PM:
" According the the Wall Street Journal, ethanol has kept the price of oil down as much as $20 a barrel from where it otherwise would be. Also, with gas at over $4 a gallon, it doesn't take government mandates to make investors see that there's a huge profit to be made with ethanol and as such, people would be turning corn into ethanol for a profit regardless of the mandates. Sorry TDN, but don't blame the regulators for doing what the free market would encourage anyway. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:47 PM:
" 1209, that's OK, I was once considered being dumb Liberal Democrat. Then I got educated. Recent polls show there are more moderate to conservative Democrats and even plenty of Billary supporters who will not support Obama and his racist views of his mentors like Rev. Wright and Louis Farrakan. The racist Obama will pull a few more flip flops like he has done on election campaign funds and Rev. Wright and the American voters will see through his shiny rhetoric. All talk and no substance. Has not sponsored one piece of meaning legislation as a senator. Has never been nor will never be a bi-partisan politican the way McCain has been with 3 important bills -- McCain-Kennedy on Immigration, McCain-Feingold on campaign funding, and McCain-Leiberman on global warming (long before Al Snore ever heard of the problem). And by the way 1209, you can claim anything you want about who you are. Your words clearly define you. Liberal Demoncat. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:03 PM:
" Let's educate a few of you card-carrying Obama Liberal Demoncrats here. The issue is not ethanol or alternative fuels although some of you are not educated enough apparently to understand that. The issue precisely is CORN-BASED ethanol. As the NY Times front page story accurrately pointed out, it is bad for the environment (emmissions are much higher than other forms of ethanol) and its bad for the economy (land that went to food crops is being diverted to this crop because of government subsidies to the tune of "multi-billions.") Obama's cause du jour is CORN-BASED ethanol (he ran an add in Iowa standing in front of a corn field). Why? Because his cadre of top-level advisers are in the CORN-BASED ethanol industry. Obama heavily favored the federal subsidies and championed them in the Senate so his fat-cat friends could fill their pockets with U.S. taxpayer dollars. They in turn rewarded Obama with handsome contributions to his campaign. Read the story by the Liberal Demoncrat mouthpiece NY Times. Then comment. Some people couldn't see the facts if they slapped them in the face. "
cheney119 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:14 PM:
" How did the democratic party send anyone to Iraq? That's right the republicans and ratface still president bush did! This is a republican war because democrats did learn from Vietnam. As for Grandpa McShame since when is it honorable to drop ordnance on children? Then not learn anything from that and pretend you hate war when you're really a war monger. I was 5 years old during the trumped up fake Gulf of Tonkin incident, but you can blame me if you like, makes about as much sense as everything else in your posts. McCain has been on both sides of every issue in the last 8 years, he's a maverick, hes a conservative, he's a liar either way isn't he. I think some bloggers would be happier in Alabama, more people are uneducated, obese, bigots there. "
cheney119 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:27 PM:
" Liberal - favorable to progress or reform in political affairs, advocating measures of progressive political reform, protection of civil liberties, permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression, free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners, open-minded or tolerant, not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, characterized by generosity. Now you feel free to call me a liberal anytime you wish; IT'S A COMPLEMENT. I can tell you listen to talk radio because you use liberal like it's a curse word; IT'S NOT. I am proud to be a liberal democrat, because you are the opposite and you should be ashamed because what ever you are it is pretty awful. "
wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:47 PM:
" Educate? Let me do some educating. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree In Mechanical Engineering. One of my projects happens to be ethanol conversion for existing petroleum lines along the Olympic Pipeline. Which is why I stumbled upon this ridiculous editorial at work. The other Engineers in the office are amused to see me incite the ramblings of an ignorant white supremacist with as little effort as possible!!! "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 24, 2008 2:24 PM:
" So you must have stumbled on the ridiculous front page story in the NY Times on Monday. You must have stumbled on the Seattle Times editorial today. And you must have stumbled on no less than 10 or others major papers that are predominantly Liberal Democrat saying the same thing nationwide. It's not just Republicans saying it. It is smarter and wiser Liberal Demoncrats than you. Or even you with your BS degree (and we know what BS stands for) would admit the problems with CORN-BASED ethanol on the environment and the economy. And you would admit that Obama has made a mistake guaranteeing his fat-cat buddies "multi-billions" in federal taxpayer subsidies in the CORN-BASED ethanol system. How come you never talk about the facts in this. All you do is ramble on in your commie-leftist Demoncrat rhetoric. Tell me about the facts of Obama's support of these subsidies. "
1209 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:05 PM:
" Somebody sounds like the ignorant laborers I work with who are bitter over the fact that they will never have an impact on the future of ethanol, like I clearly will. I'm actually paid to determine the future of ethanol production and correct other people's mistakes. I live the facts. I know the facts. The moment I don't know the facts in my line of work, people die. Literally. I dictate the facts. The other fact is that my man President Obama is going to make me one very rich dude! You'll never be an Engineer. I always will be. Choke on it, baby!!! "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:10 PM:
" Cheney--- I've read alot of your blogs and wonder if you really fall into the catagory of Liberal?? I've always come away with the impression that you aren't tolerant, open minded, respectful of peoples religious beliefs if they don't match yours, and definately not free from prejudice or bigotry. I wonder how many true liberals there are out there. By definition I should strive to be more liberal. I just think wrong is wrong and right is right. Can you tolerate that?? "
kitten wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:23 PM:
" Do any of you really believe that who we vote for president is going to make any difference at this point? The world is reaching peak oil consumption and peak food consumption. There are too many of us and we have awoken the consuming giants of China and India. "
Rosey Glasses wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:50 PM:
" I have voted concervatively and until about 20 years ago democratic. I started then voting my conscience; I vote for who seems to meet the needs, even if that person does not win, at least I don't have to feel I have voted for the lessor of two evils. The issue here is that farmers have changed their crops for the higher income of bio fuel corn. The media sensationalizes everything in order to sell papers and get people to see things one way. Our country has outsourced so much that our unemployment is rising and jobs are being lost at a fantastic rate. Reducing consumption is only a start; the bio fuels are good if they aren't taking away from the food supply. I have read what is being talked about here concerning Obama and McClain and will not be voting for either of these id10ts. I believe that we need to stop corporations from being able to lobby in congress and vote our hearts and what we truly believe will help our country; believe me the democrates will fight for more gun control (adolf hitler instilled gun control before he started in on the jewish people). If you all want to become another nazi germany... great... vote for your beloved democrates and more taxes along with generalized health care (which you may find isn't want you invisioned, read up on it). I for one am not... Ron Paul will get wrote in by me. "
cheney wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:26 PM:
" Hey I'm not the one calling myself a liberal, I just consider it a complement. Hell the only true liberal was Jesus Christ, but I guarentee he was no conservative. Wrong is wrong and right is right? That's the absence of tolerance. What I have trouble tolerating is stupidity and ignorance. Makes me wonder why I read this blog, considering the bloggers and the continuous stream of stupidity and ignorance. Never a single fact, but lots of opinions based on absolutely nothing, showing only the twisted mind of the blogger. That's why I couldn't possibly care any less what you or anyone else think of my posts. "
cheney119 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:42 PM:
" Why don't you put your vote for Ron Paul and put it in a bottle and throw it off of the Megler Bridge on an outgoing tide. That's about how much difference it will make in the Obama Landslide here in Washington State. Ohio, PA, FL, VA, GA, NC, CO, NM, NV the close races will decide this election. Here's a prediction Obama wins themm all. Just one suggestion the Nazi analogy is NEVER APPLICABLE, YOU DOLT. "
DW wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:16 AM:
" You people really are a bunch of gems. So to try to stay on topic, review the following:
1. It takes 1.3 barrels of oil to produce 1 barrel of ethanol.(real brilliant, ya more pollution)
2. Ethanol has less energy than gasoline, thus you have to burn more to get the same energy output.
3. Since we recently switched to an ethanol blend in Washington, yes thats right we are all purchasing Arco gas, my gas mileage has dropped 1.5 miles per gallon, thus I am polluting more.
4. Any vehicle that is more than a few years old will not run well on ethanol blended fuel, and will start to eat out seals and gaskets in your fuel system.
5. Liberals don't care about solving problems, they only care about outcomes. Problem is, most feel good liberal outcomes have unintended consequences that are more harmful than where we were in the first place.
6. Drill here, Drill now, and lower gas prices.
7. I am a conservative and I approve of this message. "
1. It takes 1.3 barrels of oil to produce 1 barrel of ethanol.(real brilliant, ya more pollution)
2. Ethanol has less energy than gasoline, thus you have to burn more to get the same energy output.
3. Since we recently switched to an ethanol blend in Washington, yes thats right we are all purchasing Arco gas, my gas mileage has dropped 1.5 miles per gallon, thus I am polluting more.
4. Any vehicle that is more than a few years old will not run well on ethanol blended fuel, and will start to eat out seals and gaskets in your fuel system.
5. Liberals don't care about solving problems, they only care about outcomes. Problem is, most feel good liberal outcomes have unintended consequences that are more harmful than where we were in the first place.
6. Drill here, Drill now, and lower gas prices.
7. I am a conservative and I approve of this message. "
slanteyes wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:42 AM:
" No choice at the pump will maintain the status quo. Without ethanol, gas would be 15 to 20% higher. The current price of gas is a result of the ENRON LOOPHOLE. You can google that. "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:26 AM:
" I wish people would read the editorial. It isn't knocking ethanol as an alternative fuel possibility. Ethanol clearly has possibilities. This editorial deals with the negative impacts that CORN-BASED ethanol has on our environment and our economy. It also is a call for racist Obama to end his support which according to the NY Times is solely based on the fact that several of his top campaign officals and advisers have ties to the corn-based side of this industry. That is, Obama supported giving the CORN-BASED side of this industry "multi-billions" in federal subsidies based solely on his ties to these people who profitted from the subsidies. Evidence now shows that this is not a wise choice. That's it. This editorial is not calling for the end of the ethanol experiment. In fact just the opposite. By ending subsidies on CORN grown just for this purpose and creating a free market, it will put other forms of ethanol -- algae, grass, etc. -- on a level playing field and it gives them a chance to develop faster. That is what McCain favors. Thus, Obama is in fact hurting the entire ethanol industry with his bought and paid for support of CORN-BASED fuel. "
DW wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:08 PM:
" Ethanol is a big fat mistake for a plethora of reasons. One of the main reasons gas costs for much is that we have devalued our currency so much that it takes many more dollars to by oil on the world market. Also, the refineries must, by law, make as much as 40 different blends of fuel depending on which part of the country the fuel is going to. This in turn makes gas much more expensive by limiting the supply. If our polititians would get off their butts and produce some meaning full legistlation, like, Drill here, Drill now, the cost of energy would drop quickly. Build more refineries, and limit the number of blends of fuel to 3 or 4 instead of 40, and BAN ETHANOL FROM THE PLANET, the price of fuel would drop by a huge amount. Oil is the life blood of our economy and that of the world. There are many proven reserves that we can get to without causing environmental damage. Until someone invents cold fusion, and an anti-matter reactor that will fit under the hood of your car, we will depend of fossil fuels. So get over it and and DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW, and watch the Saudi's shake in their sandles when we get serious about becoming energy independent. "
1209 wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:54 PM:
" A lot of the people posting here take this way too seriously, since most of you have your facts messed up and you will have virtually no say in fixing these ethanol false starts. Also... getcha popcorn ready...Obama will be the next President of the United States! "
TDN Bad Boy wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:52 PM:
" I wouldn't exactly start celebrating just yet, 1209, there is plenty of time until November. By that time, oil may be $6 or $7 a gallon, and the racist Obama may not have much of a choice but to flip flop on his CORN-BASED ethanol stance. McCain plains to hammer that issue in the debates, and the country will see the truth. Obama is a flip flop artist, and the country will see that he is just another John Kerry, except he doesn't even have Kerry's experience. He lied about how he would fund his campaign and turned his back on U.S. campaign reform. McCain will hammer him on that. And when the truth comes about some of his other faux paus in relation to Rev. Wright's church, America will wake up. Anybody who lost as many primaries by 20 and 30 points like he did will have plenty of trouble getting elected. So celebrate now if you want but that won't be happening on Jan. 20, 2009. Remember this isn't a popular vote. It's an electoral vote, and that is all that counts. Read Newsweek's recent analysis on where the electoral votes stand before you party too much. You would see that the experts see McCain within 25 votes of the 272 total with five states (three that have gone Republican in recent elections) still in play. As long as stories and editorials about Obama's shady support of issues such as CORN-BASED ethanol keep surfacing, his chances keep diminishing. "
1209 wrote on Jun 25, 2008 2:50 PM:
" The ethanol transition will be streamlined with Obama as President of the United States just as sure as ignorant, inbred, white supremacists flunk out of Engineering school, vote for mccain, raise chickens, fabricate "data", and think they're solving anything by posting comments for silly online editorials!!!! "
DW wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:19 PM:
" Hey 1209, I wouldn't spend any extra money on popcorn just yet. If Obama is elected, you will need that money to give to the government for the Cap and Trade of CO2 in the form of taxes. And it won't just stop with your popcorn, it will be the type of car you drive, it will be the type of house you have, the type of light bulb you use. The taxation will even as far as what type of food you eat. I'm sure you would love to pay an extra tax on butter, since we know that's bad for you. This ethanol thing is just the start, CO2, and other, so called, green house gasses will get taxed to the hilt, and you will be lucky if you can afford the eletricity to make the popcorn that you can't get 'cause we turned it into ethanol. By the way, Obama won't be elected. McCain will win, he will Drill here, Drill now, and gas prices will come down. I believe that people who can actually think, are realizing the danger a person like Obama would put this country in if he was to be elected. And heaven forbid that happened, he will get a Harry Truman moment like, talking to by the military and advisors when he gets the real picture about Iraq and Afganistan. "
Commenter wrote on Jun 25, 2008 5:51 PM:
" There's no getting rid of ethanol all together... isn't there a portion of ethanol in our gasoline already to lessen emissions? Isn't it the same stuff used many food products we eat? As far as the Obama/McCain debate, I don't like either, but I'm sad to say after being a democrat for years, McCain seems to be the lesser of two evils. Why is it elections have turned to that? It seems anymore that we must choose the lesser of two evils rather than the better of two goods... "
1209 wrote on Jun 25, 2008 5:52 PM:
" All you need to know about Obama and mccain's understanding of ethanol conversion is their considerations for Secretary of Engergy. Obama: Scarlet Johansen or J-Lo. mccain: Carnie Wilson. "
Crystal wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:02 PM:
" There is not one single politician that doesn't have any special interests or ties to some corporation. There are far more lobbyists compared to politicians, so they get their greedy hands on every politician out there (especially federal positions). Quit pretending that one is on the higher moral ground than the other. Subsidizing farmers where they make more money raising corn for ethanol than to actually produce food for people is definitely hurting everyone. We need to quit putting all our eggs in one basket when it comes to our energy sources, but everyone is in it for money and that's where the money goes. "
1209 wrote on Jun 26, 2008 2:28 AM:
" I'm going to be enjoying that popcorn with extra butter to honor President Obama's victory in November while two super hot strippers give me an extra long table dance and the three of us discuss the finer points of ethanol distillation process improvements. "
dogshead wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:00 AM:
" DW. Your DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW mantra is fromthe mouth of Mr.Bush and it does not make sense. Oil is a world commodity. If oil is pumped in the US, an oil company makes money buy selling it on a world market. True, the amount of oil we might find could add to the world supply by a factor of a couple percentage points, it has no relationship to the mytholgical, anti enviromental chant of 'drilling for energy independence'. "
dw wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:09 AM:
" Hey, dogshead, what part of supply and demand do you not understand. North America has more proven oil reserves than any other part of the planet. Yes, more than the middle east. We need to Drill Here and Drill Now, Pay low gas prices. If there is more oil on the market, the price comes down. And I'm not worried about displacing a Polar Bear either, since there numbers have quadrupled in the last 20 years. Heck, I'd drill through a Polar Bears head if I thought there was oil in it!!
Until you find a better source of energy, LIKE NUCLEAR, (no joke), we are stuck on oil. Drill it, process it, and I'll stick it in my big gas guzzling pick-up truck. "
Until you find a better source of energy, LIKE NUCLEAR, (no joke), we are stuck on oil. Drill it, process it, and I'll stick it in my big gas guzzling pick-up truck. "
Hauskapoika wrote on Jun 26, 2008 12:21 PM:
" Holy smokes, we were talking about ethanol, weren't we? Already the attacks on the candidates have begun and the conventions aren't even here yet. Ethanol, alchohol, electric, hydrogen - all these attempts to get away from oil are good because we learn from it. The USA has not been able to produce enough oil domestically to meet its needs since 1947 and the problem is getting worse. A professor at Boston University claims the world will be almost out of oil by 2042, so what do we do then? We need to explore EVERY possibility NOW - including ethanol - until a better alternative is available. It's true: Necessity is the mother of invention. "
kitten wrote on Jun 26, 2008 12:42 PM:
" Once again I ask, "Do you all really think that whether we vote in a Republican or Democrat is going to make any difference at all?" If so, you are kidding yourselves. Have any of you taken a look at the DOW today? The Feds have their hands tied and so will the next monkey elected into office. The fact that anyone is even having the "My party or yours" conversation shows one of the biggest reasons this country is failing. Everyone talked about whether Americans were ready to have a black or woman president, what about having a president that is not tied to all the political nonsense brought about by the archaic political parties responsible for the mess we are in now? "
DW wrote on Jun 26, 2008 12:51 PM:
" hey, Hauskapoika, (how do you pronounce that anyway?) Screw Ethanol, Alchohol, (unless it's in my drink), and hydrogen. The technology is years away, so until then it's oil. And Electric? I think we have electricity, unless your talking about electric cars. Problem is electric cars use more fossil fuels than gas powered cars, so that's not gonna do it. If you really want to put a dent in fossil fuel usage, go Nuclear. Nuclear is the cleanest energy source we know of. But until the government isn't run by a bunch of liberals, we won't go nuke. So Drill here, Drill now, Pay less at the pump. "
cheney119 wrote on Jun 26, 2008 1:15 PM:
" The talk of peak oil seems to disregard the fact that gasoline can be made from coal for less than $100 a barrel. How much coal is left? 10,000 years worth or some such. The German war machine ran a large precentage of equipment on gasoline produced from coal and that was 65 years ago. Not exactly new technology is it? Besides there are biologists engineering organisms that can eat cellulose and produce hydrocarbons in their excrement. The day we stop using oil is a very very long way off. Besides we will always need oil for plactics and chemical production, hydorcarbons will need to be found or produced, regardless of our transportation needs. Corn ethanol is a joke though. The subsidy is the only thing that has kept it alive. I'm for subsidies, but only for startup, sink or swim after that! It's a sin to use a food only to burn in an engine especially when the cellulose from farm waste can perform the same duty. "
1209 wrote on Jun 26, 2008 1:23 PM:
" I'm not surprised that people around Longview don't understand ethanol, or any renewable fuel. Ignorance loves familiarity. Obviously, dw stands for dim wit. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Jun 26, 2008 1:56 PM:
" Wow, when I grow up I want to be an engineer like 1209. That way I can be smarter than everyone in the world and have a total knowledge of all areas of every subject. But alas, I'm just an ignorant common laborer who is stuck in the treads of 1209's shoes. Must be nice to be an engineer! I wonder if you have to have common sense to be an engineer?? I probably wouldn't make a very good one! "
My Kids' Mom wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:09 PM:
" Ethanol costs more money to make, than they sell it for. That's backward economics if you ask me. It takes about 450 pounds of corn to fill up a gastank one time. That same corn could feed well, probably 450 people for a day is my guess. Drill through Rudolf the reindeers' head to get to the oil folks. My high school teacher "Jim Bair" taught me that
Price =supply and demand. The demand will not go away, it will only go up. Supply is currently under the control of the oil gods. Increase supply is the answer but we are at the mercy of the "earth" gods called "Environmentalist" and there "mother earth cult" called "Global Warming" and other less controversial term "Climate Change". Even if US off shore drilling is 20 years away, as long as it's "in the works" then that will lower prices even before the oil is barreled up. It's called "consumer confidence". Gosh, I'm glad I have all the answers.Smile. "
Price =supply and demand. The demand will not go away, it will only go up. Supply is currently under the control of the oil gods. Increase supply is the answer but we are at the mercy of the "earth" gods called "Environmentalist" and there "mother earth cult" called "Global Warming" and other less controversial term "Climate Change". Even if US off shore drilling is 20 years away, as long as it's "in the works" then that will lower prices even before the oil is barreled up. It's called "consumer confidence". Gosh, I'm glad I have all the answers.Smile. "
DW wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:19 PM:
" Well 1209, I have found out that as soon as the name calling starts, that I have won that argument. Drill here, Drill now, Pay less for gas. And Ban Ethanol now. "
wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:21 PM:
" I'm detecting some more bitterness and resentment. At least you can always post here and pretend like you're actually solving problems, even though you really aren't. I always enjoy being lectured about common sense every day from people who don't have enough of it to keep themselves from being miserable failures. But I'm sure you'll find someone else to blame for that, too. But let's try and keep the discussion focused on what you think you know about ethanol. It's one of the few brief pleasures through out my work day. "
Commenter wrote on Jun 26, 2008 4:29 PM:
" If supply and demand are the issue, why is Saudi refusing to produce more oil. Instead they say they produce enough to meet the world's demand. Then there's Lybia. They're cutting back their production because there is plenty of supply. I think it's the dollar that's causing the oil prices to rise. As the dollar is worth less and less, the price for oil increases. We're not paying more for gas, we're paying more for our dollar. "
woah-woah-woah wrote on Jun 26, 2008 5:19 PM:
" Wow, ethanol mandates are having unintended consequences? Negative consequences? Maybe doing more harm than good? I'm shocked, shocked at such a result! Who could have imagined that we "might not get value for [our] dollars?" Outlandish! "
My Kids' Mom wrote on Jun 26, 2008 5:25 PM:
" Commenter has a valid point. But, I'm not sure if I'd beleive the Saudi's saying that they are producing enough. You gotta admit it's probably good entertainment for the Saudi's and Lybia to see Americans squirm and whine about the price of gas. "
turkeyhunterman wrote on Jun 26, 2008 5:42 PM:
" Making ethanol is a pretty simple process. Something you can do in your garage if you wanted to. Grind some corn, add some water, boil it, add some enzymes, ferment it for a while, remove the water and basically you have ethanol. Don't have to be an engineer to do that. I do have to wonder why corn is the prefered ingredient when sugar cane yeilds 3 to 5 times more ethanol. But I'm just a miserable failure who only works about 4 months a year, earns 6 figure income, owns his home and vehicles, can do whatever I feel like doing and all that without being an engineer. Choke on that 1209! "
1209 wrote on Jun 26, 2008 6:43 PM:
" Since when did these comments about ethanol become about me? I feel like the pretty girl that people start lying about themselves to in order to impress me. All with a lack of creativity or originality! The previous recipe for ethanol (Jun 26, 2008 5:42 PM) is a good description for how to burn your house down, and you don't have to be an Engineer to do that! Based upon the obvious lack of sugar cane fields in the U.S., any dolt can figure out why Americans are so quick to rely on corn as an ethanol source. But if you want to actually make real ethanol that won't destroy property or take peoples lives, start by hiring a real Engineer. Does anyone else smell delicious popcorn? "
Hauskapoika wrote on Jun 26, 2008 11:31 PM:
" Hey, DW: Don't make assumptions. I did not say we should not drill - actually, I'm for it even if it will not help much. My point is we are eventually going to run out of oil, so we have to explore alternatives, and get set to implement new fuels BEFORE we run out of oil. Thus, I am for producing every alternative and testing it. As I said, "Necessity is the mother of invention." New solutions will be found because it is necessary. "
randydutton wrote on Jun 30, 2008 1:23 PM:
" Technical problems abound with ethanol. Ethanol degrades fuel system components. Per the Pro-Ethanol www.E85fuel.com website:
“Some materials become degraded by contact with fuel ethanol blends having high alcohol concentrations. Zinc, brass, lead, and aluminum are sensitive metals. lead-ti-alloy-plated steel, which is commonly used for gasoline fuel tanks, and lead-based solder are also incompatible with E85. Avoid using these metals…Nonmetallic materials that degrade when in contact with fuel ethanol include natural rubber, polyurethane, cork gasket material, leather, PVC, polyamides, methyl-methylacrylate plastics.” Ethanol is a bad choice. Algal propanol would have been better, but politicians jumped on the first gee-whiz solution offered them and used taxpayer money to do it. Now many feel locked in by their bad decisions and won't admit error, at least until after the election. And now there's even newer solutions including natural gas doped fuel that gets more and cleaner power. "
“Some materials become degraded by contact with fuel ethanol blends having high alcohol concentrations. Zinc, brass, lead, and aluminum are sensitive metals. lead-ti-alloy-plated steel, which is commonly used for gasoline fuel tanks, and lead-based solder are also incompatible with E85. Avoid using these metals…Nonmetallic materials that degrade when in contact with fuel ethanol include natural rubber, polyurethane, cork gasket material, leather, PVC, polyamides, methyl-methylacrylate plastics.” Ethanol is a bad choice. Algal propanol would have been better, but politicians jumped on the first gee-whiz solution offered them and used taxpayer money to do it. Now many feel locked in by their bad decisions and won't admit error, at least until after the election. And now there's even newer solutions including natural gas doped fuel that gets more and cleaner power. "
Past Month's Most Commented Stories