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Council OKs limits on panhandling

Friday, April 25, 2008 12:23 AM PDT

By Amy M.E. Fischer

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The Longview City Council voted 5-1 on Thursday to adopt an ordinance targeting aggressive panhandlers, despite the vehement objections of several citizens who felt the city's existing laws were sufficient.

The ordinance makes it illegal for panhandlers to solicit money at bus stops, in driveways, on public transportation, within 50 feet of ATM machines, or on private property unless the panhandler has written permission from the owner.

When soliciting money, beggars would be forbidden from coming closer than 3 feet of people or blocking the person's path or vehicle.

In addition, the ordinance prohibits panhandlers from soliciting anyone younger than 16, following people who reject their requests, or cuss out or verbally abuse someone who refuses to give them money. Violators would be guilty of a misdemeanor and face a maximum fine of $1,000 and/or 90 days in jail.

Aside from the conditions stipulated in the ordinance, panhandling remains legal in Longview, City Attorney Marilyn Nitteberg-Haan emphasized.

Councilman Ken Botero cast the lone vote against the ordinance, which was modeled after a panhandling ordinance in Lacey, Wash. However, the council struck three provisions from the ordinance, saying the language was too broad and could infringe upon people's constitutional rights to free speech.

The council eliminated clauses that banned begging in groups or individuals soliciting money within 50 feet of each other. They also struck a clause making it illegal for panhandlers to make "any statement, gesture, or other communication that a reasonable person ... would perceive to be a threat or offensive" when being solicited.

Nitteberg-Haan said that Longview police took 55 reports of panhandling incidents in 2007. That data provided grounds for stricter regulations on begging, she said.

"We're already getting calls for service on this right now," City Manager Bob Gregory said. "Our challenge is we don't have the tools to deal with this."

Longview resident Zach Parsons disagreed.

"What's wrong with the laws we have now for trespass, harassment?... Why are we making them harsher?" he demanded. "What other civil liberties are you going to strip next? ... You're painting a very slippery slope."

Longview resident Megan Guffey said 55 panhandling incidents amounted to roughly one per week in a town of nearly 40,000 residents. She asked the city to provide data showing a trend of panhandling increasing over several years.

"I'm not convinced it's an epidemic," she said.

Councilman Andy Busack was absent from the meeting.

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Preacher wrote on Apr 25, 2008 6:24 AM:

" Just make panhandling against the law period, instead of all the mumble bumble rules and laws which can't be enforced or crimes proven without spending more tax money. "

Good Call wrote on Apr 25, 2008 7:02 AM:

" I am so glad that they finally have some sort of rule. I hate getting questioned for money. Its hard enough as it is to come by enough for yourself. Why is that these people are so different and can't EARN there living by working like everybody else in this town. I wish the rules were stricter because you seriously can't drive in kelso without seeing one at every freeway exit or entrance, and Wal-mart, thats ridiculous. Get a job like most people and stop hounding us for money. It doesn't come easy. "

Concerned Citizen wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:17 AM:

" I wish our city residents could learn to treat our fellow human beings with respect and dignity. Not only would that attitude be more conducive to solving the local poverty problem, it might curtail some of the supposed "aggressive" nature of desperate people begging for money to make their lives a little more livable. "

Opponent wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:19 AM:

" Interestingly, no one in favor of the ordinance made an appearance at the City Council made an appearance to speak on it's behalf. Nor were LPD officials there to ask for the measure to help them police the streets. Just what is the burden of proof to justify new local legislation?? It certainly doesn't seem to have been met in this case. "

Long Time Longview Girl wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:22 AM:

" Thank you for passing this much needed ordinance. I am dissappointed that some of the clauses were thrown out, however.

Even though there werr only 55 complaints to the police, we all know that most complaints go unreported. Does Megan Guffey support the local economy and shop in Longview and Kelso, or does she leave town for her shopping? One or two visits to the Triangle Mall is all you need to witness the panhandlers in action.

This is government in action working to clean up our city. "

DUH wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:54 AM:

" WHO in their right mind would oppose this? Seriously! The only thing I think that should not be part of this law is the 90 in jail. Why should the tax payers pay for a panhandlers hotel? Let's use that money for a bus ticket and ship them to another town. Palm Springs does this, and that is a CLEAN and FINANCIALLY SOUND city - more than can be said about Longview "

THANK YOU wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:23 AM:

" I realize there are homeless people in our community that need our help, but I was alway taught if you give a man a fish they eat for the day, teach a man to fish they eat for a life time (or something like that!) anyway my point is Longview does have organizations to help, these people just need to ask for social services instead of begging for change on the streets! The ones that dont want help from social services, community house, churches, and are out there begging for your money are usually using the money for DRUGS....not to feed themselves or their families.....how do I know this??? next time you see me I will be asking for your money!!!!! And guess what 9 times out of 10 you will give it to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Amazed By Ignorance wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:37 AM:

" A 1,000.00 dollar fine for panhandling? Just how do they think a panhandler would come up with the money? Thanks for the laugh. "

Tucker wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:41 AM:

" So many people comment in this forum about the cons of living in Longview. Well, one of those cons is the large amount of beggars in and around the city. If you outlaw begging/panhandling all together, that is one major way to clean up the city. So many of the beggars I see have the ability to sit/stand in their chosen place all day long, rain, snow, or shine - I think they have the stamina to actually hold down some kind of paying job! If they are not allowed to beg in Longview they will have two choices - get out of town or get a job! "

Quit giving to the panhandlers wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:56 AM:

" When are all you people that give to these panhandlers going to quit doing so? These people are scammers!!! HELLO!!!! You are just supporting their drug and/or alcohol problems. Wake up people! If you all quit giving, then maybe they will go away. Quit feeling sorry for them!! If they need help then they can go and get it the correct way. "

Jack wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:14 AM:

" I agree that the "beggars" are a problem but I think that jail time and or a fine are not the solution. We need to clean up our streets, parks, etc. Let's make them clean up this town. If they have the ability to stand out in horrible conditions all day long then they have the ability to walk around and pick up trash. "

Its me wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:22 AM:

" God gives every bird it's food....but he does not throw it in the nest! "

No respect no dignity wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:27 AM:

" To Concerned Citizen: Those panhandlers do not deserve the respect, look how they are aggressive. I am not going to give them any money just so they won't be aggressive towards me, that isn't respect. Dignity? They don't have any themselves. I believe in helping those who are actually TRYING to help themselves, not to enable. It is nice you have a heart, but it is in the wrong place. "

Does Kelso Recognize wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:40 AM:

" The effect of this will be that the panhandlers move into Kelso- at every entrance to the mall, at freeway off ramps, and at Tam'o as the weather warms. We've already got them on the ramps and on both sides of Allen Street at the mall. The cops cannot do anything about them and it's about to get worse. "

Charity wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Panhandlers made their beds.....now let them sleep where they have to....Just like I keep telling my 20 year old Heroin addicted son....you dug your hole...know it is time to dig yourself out. The more you continue to enable addicts or the homeless to not strive for something better they will never try. If you keep throwing money at the them...they do not have to try. I agree with charity, and if you think about giving money to someone one a corner....stop and think is this going for drugs/alcohol???? If for once seconds time you think it will...then don't give you change or cash...go and buy them a little food and give it to them. You will have the peace of mind knowing that they ate today. "

DJ wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:47 AM:

" I agree with the above poster. Do not give to the panhandlers. Simple solution, don't give & they will go away. "

Just say no wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:48 AM:

" Get a way from me! is as polite as I'll be. "

Sick wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:04 AM:

" I was with my 3 year old daughter at Applebees yesterday when a man approached us asking for money. When I told him no, he cussed at us and walked off. If there is no law to arrest a looser like that, then I totally support a new one. "

If they are really in need wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:05 AM:

" You can do what my mom (five kids, deadbeat dad)used to do. She would go buy them a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter (yes, she used her food stamps) and give them a list of phone numbers for the local organizations that could help them get back on thier feet. "

Lone Shopper wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:08 AM:

" Okay. Now that the ordinace is passed, which is a start in the right direction, all of you out there that still feel sorry for these 'fake' homeless & hungry wolves PLEASE DO NOT enable them to keep on keeping on! Take the advice of many & DO NOT give out cash to them! If you REALLY want to give out YOUR hard earned cash to the needy, give to a local CHARITY -- church, Salvation Army, FISH, Neighbors In Need, the food bank...the list goes on. YOU will get a tax donation receipt & you'll be blessed by giving to the true needy in the local area. Bottom line is QUIT HANDING OUT CASH TO THE PANHANDLERS! "

Dorkus wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:32 AM:

" So how will this effect Scouts and all the sport clubs who beg for money outside of stores? "

Remember wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:41 AM:

" In as much as you have done this to the least of these my bretheren you have done it unto me. "

Joe_B wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:42 AM:

" Is impersonation illegal? Because every time i see a panhandler or begger, he/she is always sporting a sign which says their a veteran, or a retired armed forces recruit, and that's horrible that they would drop so low as to pretend like that. "

WHAT wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:47 AM:

" I hope none of you eager beaver supporters of this ordinance never go through a job loss or illness that might reduce you to begging for enough money to eat. When did the people of Longview get so hard hearted? "

No Megan... wrote on Apr 25, 2008 12:00 PM:

" Fifty-five represents the number of COMPLAINTS that were filed, not the number of times it occurred. How many folks do you suppose just walked away, frustrated that their son or daughter had to hear the filth coming out of these people's mouth? How many simply moved on and didn't report it? How many people do you suppose figured that reporting it was a waste of their time as there was no ordinance for the police to enforce? You're using fuzzy math, Megan. It's happening every day, and people are tired of it. "

town cryer wrote on Apr 25, 2008 12:21 PM:

" Joe, The sad thing is, that some of the legit panhandlers are vets. They are now mentally incapable of doing most work. The present republican government has cut them off from most of the benefits they were once able to recieve for their mental and emotional sickness. Many who spend time in another country fighting an illegal war, all for the benefit of those who profit from the war, come home so dissolusioned that they can no longer fit into the mainstream society. I say let Halburton, Bechtel, and all of the rest who profit from such atrocities, pay for these lost souls. After all they will eventually be the lost souls. "

Woodlander wrote on Apr 25, 2008 12:27 PM:

" I am all for treating our fellow citizens with respect and dignity. A young man can often be seen in front of the Kelso Burger King with a sign stating "18 and homeless". One has to wonder why the young man doesn't respectfully walk into the burger place and respectfully apply for a job and earn some dignity. Apparently, he gets more money handed to him for holding a sign than he can earn making minimum wage flipping burgers. The only way we can fix this problem is to respectfully not to give money for holding a sign, stop making it so profitable to panhandle. And we can't give him qualities like respect and dignity if he has none for himself to begin with, these are virtues we have to prove to ourselves because society is not going to hand them to us,(as the previous comments will attest to). "

RE What wrote on Apr 25, 2008 12:40 PM:

" I would hope no one would have to go through something like a job loss or an illness. If someone did have a major life change for the worse...there is the Salvation Army, there is FISH, there is CAP, there is ST. Vincents, there is ALOT of organizations that help people down on their luck for whatever reason.
People who panhandle, do not want to use these organizations, because all they want is money. Not food. MONEY. For alcohol and drugs.
It's pretty simple.
I give whatever I can to those organizations, because I know what my money will be used for. I will NEVER, under ANY circumstances, give to someone who begs on a street corner. "

Re town cryer wrote on Apr 25, 2008 1:07 PM:

" That is very productive analyitical thinking. *ahem* "

TO DORKUS wrote on Apr 25, 2008 1:18 PM:

" GET A CLUE DORKUS.....THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PANHANDLERS,SCOUTS AND OTHER SCHOOL GROUPS. THE SCOUTS & SCHOOL GROUPS ARE NOT STANDING OUTSIDE STORES BEGGING FOR MONEY!!!! THEY ARE SELLING ITEMS TO RAISE MONEY TO SUPPORT EXPENSES FOR THEIR GROUPS. PANHANDLERS ONLY WANT MONEY TO SUPPORT THEIR BAD HABITS AND THEY DO NOT WANT TO WORK FOR IT!!!! "

Clear Thinker wrote on Apr 25, 2008 1:31 PM:

" Government......as usual! Here we have the never ending attempt at verbal acrobatage and a silly attempt to say where one cannot panhandle rather than were it is permissible. I think the city should, as in Portland where they have "bike boxes", painted green, where bikers should be at stop lights, paint GOLD BOXES where the bums can stand and beg. Some times the simple solution is the best. "

Resent what wrote on Apr 25, 2008 1:32 PM:

" To the poster "What" I am a single homeowner, mother of two who has lost a job due to my position being eliminated. I do not have it easy at all, but am doing everything I can to help myself, and that does "not" include standing on a corner begging with a sign, or putting my kids out there. It is digusting to me to see these beggers out there. They need to help themselves! You need to pull your head out of the sand! "

To Dorkus wrote on Apr 25, 2008 1:40 PM:

" Dorkus, When you "buy" from Scouts your getting a product from them, it is called a fund raiser to help out their organization. Salvation Army at Christmas time, your donating money to help out the needy. I don't see how this is the same as panhandling money for drugs/alcohol/cigarettes. You can bet your every cent you give to the p.h. that is where YOUR money is going.

"

clay wrote on Apr 25, 2008 2:03 PM:

" Thank you longview city counsil! It was nice to drive around town today and not have a panhandler at every corner with their sob story signs. Kelso, you're next, they all moved over there, so it's your turn! "

news wrote on Apr 25, 2008 3:00 PM:

" Try this....offer to buy them lunch...do not give them money..
buy a .99 cent burger and hand it
to them....do not give them the
chance to buy drugs with your
hard earned money.... "

Kelso Mom wrote on Apr 25, 2008 4:16 PM:

" You have to get permission from the stores before you set up a fundraiser, by the way. Did the panhandlers get permission? This is a totally different situation. "

No more panhandling wrote on Apr 25, 2008 4:57 PM:

" Come on Longview, let's keep Longview free from panhandling. JUST SAY NO! It was nice not to see filth hanging around begging, it made me more comfortable. "

Revenge of the beggers wrote on Apr 25, 2008 6:41 PM:

" Hey Wallace! Don't think that me and my begger friends are going to forget this. Next time you run for office you should think about this issue. I'll trade in my Wallace yard sign for a Will Work For Food sign any day. This city council is out of control and can't see what they are doing? Thank for slowly taking away our rights as Americans! Power to the Panhandelers! "

Pay attention wrote on Apr 25, 2008 7:32 PM:

" Has anyone actually paid attention to what the panhandlers do? I did. A young kid had a gas can and a sign saying he needed money for gas to get home. I stopped and offered to fill his can for him. He said "No, move along!" So that tells me he isn't looking for gas. Another time a woman was over near the mall. She had a sign that said, "Homeless and hungry." I went to Burger King and got her a meal. I brought it to her and she threw it on the ground and said, "Gee, thanks", in a sarcastic voice. I was angry. Then, in the parking lot at Safeway on 15th a man was asking people for money. One guy didn't say anything to him and got into his car. The panhandler started pounding on his window hard and cussing him out. So after all those experiences, I absolutely do not try to help them anymore. Fining them is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. IMO, make it illegal. There are programs and shelters to help the ones who want help. "

Old news wrote on Apr 25, 2008 7:49 PM:

" News Flash......People have been begging for at least 2000 years. They are much easier to avoid than the fundraiser kids at the doors of Safeway. "

Simple Solution wrote on Apr 25, 2008 7:56 PM:

" The best way and easiest way is not to give the panhandlers anything. That is the simple solution! "

I Need Money wrote on Apr 25, 2008 10:27 PM:

" Please if you see me on a corner or in front of Walmart with a sign asking for money to pay for a special education lawyer --Please know that I am legit. My son has autism and he's not getting the services that he needs. Attorney's don't take monthly installments and I am not to proud to beg. We are fighting for his life. "

Let them hold a new sign wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:45 PM:

" Have you seen signs that sell jobs or matresses or things replace there begging signs with these and pay them a wage everyone makes out...They show up everyday to the same places hand them a new sign it is a election year pay them to hold your signs....very simple solution.... "

I noticed wrote on Apr 26, 2008 7:50 AM:

" that there are two comments at least from those saying they are panhandlers.. and they have computers or they couldn't post the comments on here! Wonder how they paid for them... Thank you City Council! Folks, please continue to donate to the organizations that help the truly in need, not panhandlers! "

Panhandlers wrote on Apr 26, 2008 8:51 AM:

" I work at a local convenience store, we do our best to keep the panhandlers away from our customers but it is no easy task. They yell at us and tell us to mind our own business and that they have a right to earn a living too. These same people who are begging to earn a living then come in with their pennies, nickels and dimes and buy their cheap high octane 40 ounce beer, grab a coffee cup so it isn't obvious they are drinking in public and start back over. My favorite is when they come in with 75 cent, empty the penny jar and say "help a guy out, I am a little short" when buying their beer. "

For you people that want to quote the bible wrote on Apr 26, 2008 10:08 AM:

" as "proof" that panhandlers are supposed to be given money by us, I suggest you also read the many scriptures that discuss laziess and slothness. I highly doubt Jesus approved of drug addicts or just plain lazy people standing on street corners begging for money. And also keep in mind, poltical oppression kept people down in Jesus times, not meth. "

Lilsue wrote on Apr 26, 2008 11:38 AM:

" I'm homeless and i panhandle. Yes please arrest me for trying to survive on the streets with nothing to fall back on. The small amount i may get, would not justify what the county would have to pay out for housing me in their new jail. I am disabled so they would have to house me in the med ward of the jail which means extra staff for me. Then they would have to pay for all my meds that i get monthly which comes to a total of $1400 a month alone. Then they would have to transport me to my 3 plus times weekly doctors appointments. To do this they would have to call a med taxi that would take my wheelchair. Not including my treatments for lymphedema and those are daily treatments all the way in vancouver. The cost to the county could be thousands. So yes fine me $1000 for begging to survive and give me a roof over my head for 90 days that would be heaven. At least i would be warm and get to eat 3 meals a day and a hot hower daily. I would have thought i had died and gone to heaven. So if you can't spare a dollar here or there, maybe u could spare a few thousand to house me. What would you rather pay? "

Single Mom wrote on Apr 26, 2008 12:41 PM:

" I agree that people need to earn for themselves. I have said this before and I'll say it again. Why should we give if they are not willing to help themselves? Community House helps people who are homeless and most of the people staying at the shelter get Cach, Food stamps, and medical. They live rent free and eat deli food from safeway with the stamps they get.I know this because I see them on my lunch hour. I see Community House asking us to help with food why not make it a rule that if you are staying at the shelter and getting stamps then you must help with food. I am a single working Mom, I pay rent as well as W/S/G. I can't get stamps because I make $11.00 over the income limits.

Fair is fair, pay your own way. "

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